Political Crossfire Forums

Gus · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 7324 Location: Tampa, FL

Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:39 wrote: But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Jesus Christ, Luke 6:29 wrote: If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
Jesus Christ, John 8:7 wrote: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

When I occasionally go to church with my family, it amazes me to hear how pro-war the entire church is. Actually, most Christians I know think that we should retaliate against the terrorists and crush them into the ground. After reminding them about the above passages, they momentarily stare blankly at me, then quickly rationalize themselves. I want to know if there's any pro-war-on-terrorists or pro-war-on-anybody Christians out there that can provide a good reason to contradict what Jesus Himself said. How can a Christian not be a pacifist?

sLiPpY · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 9661

:think: Beats the hell out of me, excepting...maybe those folks in Church, really aren't "Christians." :P

maskedJR · Joined: 12 Feb 2005 Posts: 2013 Location: kansas

Quote: Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.
Matthew 5:9

The earliest Christians were pacifists.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

sLiPpY wrote: :think: Beats the hell out of me, excepting...maybe those folks in Church, really aren't "Christians." :P
No, generally speaking, most "Church-going" folk in this country are anything but Christians.. They are (generally speaking) liars and imposters and posers, and their fate was spelled out in graphic detail by the Nazarene himself over 2,000 years ago in Matthew 7:21-23..

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Leo Tolstoy wrote an incredibly good book on this topic called The Kingdom of God is Within You:

http://www.kingdomnow.org/withinyou.html

lucidnightmare · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:27 am Post subject:

Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

There is NO basis to believe that Christ taught passivism.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

lucidnightmare wrote: Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

There is NO basis to believe that Christ taught passivism.
Biblically, swords (and knives) are usually symbolic of the Will.

What Jesus is saying here is that if you have no Willpower, you need to go out and find some.

lucidnightmare · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:10 am Post subject:

psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

There is NO basis to believe that Christ taught passivism.
Biblically, swords (and knives) are usually symbolic of the Will.

What Jesus is saying here is that if you have no Willpower, you need to go out and find some.

You can buy wil power for money?Sell your cloak and buy will power?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

lucidnightmare wrote: psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

There is NO basis to believe that Christ taught passivism.
Biblically, swords (and knives) are usually symbolic of the Will.

What Jesus is saying here is that if you have no Willpower, you need to go out and find some.

You can buy wil power for money?Sell your cloak and buy will power?
The cloak is also symbolic.

Almost *everything* in the Biblical accounts is symbolic.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15408 Location: Florida

maskedJR wrote: Quote: Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.
Matthew 5:9

The earliest Christians were pacifists. \

Pacifists don't make peace. A pacifist vs. a warmonger = a dead pacifist, and no peace.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15408 Location: Florida

Gus wrote: Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:39 wrote: But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Jesus Christ, Luke 6:29 wrote: If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
Jesus Christ, John 8:7 wrote: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

When I occasionally go to church with my family, it amazes me to hear how pro-war the entire church is. Actually, most Christians I know think that we should retaliate against the terrorists and crush them into the ground. After reminding them about the above passages, they momentarily stare blankly at me, then quickly rationalize themselves. I want to know if there's any pro-war-on-terrorists or pro-war-on-anybody Christians out there that can provide a good reason to contradict what Jesus Himself said. How can a Christian not be a pacifist?

War and peace aren't a matter for the religious, they are a matter for governments (or Caesar) and this world.

lucidnightmare · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject:

psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

There is NO basis to believe that Christ taught passivism.
Biblically, swords (and knives) are usually symbolic of the Will.

What Jesus is saying here is that if you have no Willpower, you need to go out and find some.

You can buy wil power for money?Sell your cloak and buy will power?
The cloak is also symbolic.

Almost *everything* in the Biblical accounts is symbolic.

It isn't symbolic.He was giving them practical advice on what to do after he was killed.You can't twist this one to support your politics.

35 He said to them, "When I sent you out without purse, and wallet, and shoes, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing."

36 Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.

37 For I tell you that this which is written must still be fulfilled in me:'He was counted with transgressors.' For that which concerns me has an end."

38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

lucidnightmare wrote: psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

There is NO basis to believe that Christ taught passivism.
Biblically, swords (and knives) are usually symbolic of the Will.

What Jesus is saying here is that if you have no Willpower, you need to go out and find some.

You can buy wil power for money?Sell your cloak and buy will power?
The cloak is also symbolic.

Almost *everything* in the Biblical accounts is symbolic.

It isn't symbolic.He was giving them practical advice on what to do after he was killed.You can't twist this one to support your politics.

35 He said to them, "When I sent you out without purse, and wallet, and shoes, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing."

36 Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.

37 For I tell you that this which is written must still be fulfilled in me:'He was counted with transgressors.' For that which concerns me has an end."

38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."
I don't care to argue w/ you, you're free to interpret Biblical Scripture however you choose.

Just know that in Biblical Scripture swords (and knives) are almost always symbolic the Will.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Gus wrote: Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:39 wrote: But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Jesus Christ, Luke 6:29 wrote: If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
Jesus Christ, John 8:7 wrote: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

When I occasionally go to church with my family, it amazes me to hear how pro-war the entire church is. Actually, most Christians I know think that we should retaliate against the terrorists and crush them into the ground. After reminding them about the above passages, they momentarily stare blankly at me, then quickly rationalize themselves. I want to know if there's any pro-war-on-terrorists or pro-war-on-anybody Christians out there that can provide a good reason to contradict what Jesus Himself said. How can a Christian not be a pacifist? I would say since Jesus is God that you should read the OT and see if he is the pacifist you try to portray. There are certain times to turn the cheek and there are certain times to fight, when 3000 of your countrymen are killed in cold blood I would say thats a time to fight.

And your last quote from the bible is more about judging people then defending your country or killing the murders.

lucidnightmare · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject:

psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

There is NO basis to believe that Christ taught passivism.
Biblically, swords (and knives) are usually symbolic of the Will.

What Jesus is saying here is that if you have no Willpower, you need to go out and find some.

You can buy wil power for money?Sell your cloak and buy will power?
The cloak is also symbolic.

Almost *everything* in the Biblical accounts is symbolic.

It isn't symbolic.He was giving them practical advice on what to do after he was killed.You can't twist this one to support your politics.

35 He said to them, "When I sent you out without purse, and wallet, and shoes, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing."

36 Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.

37 For I tell you that this which is written must still be fulfilled in me:'He was counted with transgressors.' For that which concerns me has an end."

38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."
I don't care to argue w/ you, you're free to interpret Biblical Scripture however you choose.

Just know that in Biblical Scripture swords (and knives) are almost always symbolic the Will.

I am free to interpret Biblical Scripture anyway I want just as anyone else is,but that isn't to say it would be right.It's easy,just look at the context of the statement,he wasn't preaching a sermon,he was giving them instructions on how to survive after he was killed.

Want to be a passivist then be one.I have no doubt that Christ taught mercy,but passivism no.

The tone of this thread is to say that people who aren't passivist are "real Christians".That isn't the case.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

LetsGetReal wrote: There are certain times to turn the cheek and there are certain times to fight, when 3000 of your countrymen are killed in cold blood I would say thats a time to fight.
Not when the people too damn stupid to even figure out who it was that committed the murders in the first place.

I don't think "fighting" is appropriate at this point in time. Most American "sheeple" will soon be killed as a consequence of their own ignorance and foolishness, and the bankers who run the world will be killed as well as a consequence of their own greed and avarice.

The wisest choice for an American to pursue right now is to plan and prepare for Reconstruction, after the Mass Slaughters have ended..

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject:

Christianity being completely passifist and submisive was based around the idea that the kingdom of god was stupidly close, and herculean rightcousness was needed to in, egro the sermon on the mount mathew 5-7 has ethical commands that frankly are insanly hard to live up to, you have to be a perfect as god it states at the end of mathew 5.

However circa 200ad when it was becoming odvious the perushia and kingdom of god (from a future escatological sense) were a no show christian thinkers and theologicans started rushing to produce a whole jus ad bello philosophy regarding violence and war.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

lucidnightmare wrote: I am free to interpret Biblical Scripture anyway I want just as anyone else is,but that isn't to say it would be right.It's easy,just look at the context of the statement,he wasn't preaching a sermon,he was giving them instructions on how to survive after he was killed.
I (personally) don't think very highly (at all) of the "contextual" school of Biblical interpretation (i.e., look at the context of this, it must therefore mean that).

Quote: Want to be a passivist then be one.I have no doubt that Christ taught mercy,but passivism no.
Self defense in the face of aggression is *always* appropriate.

That said, you also reap what you sow. Christians are admonished to render the deeds of mercy, for there is no other way that mercy can be rendered unto them. Conversely, if you live by the sword, chances are you shall die by the sword.

The choice is yours.

lucidnightmare · Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject:

psholtz wrote: lucidnightmare wrote: I am free to interpret Biblical Scripture anyway I want just as anyone else is,but that isn't to say it would be right.It's easy,just look at the context of the statement,he wasn't preaching a sermon,he was giving them instructions on how to survive after he was killed.
I (personally) don't think very highly (at all) of the "contextual" school of Biblical interpretation (i.e., look at the context of this, it must therefore mean that).

Quote: Want to be a passivist then be one.I have no doubt that Christ taught mercy,but passivism no.
Self defense in the face of aggression is *always* appropriate.

That said, you also reap what you sow. Christians are admonished to render the deeds of mercy, for there is no other way that mercy can be rendered unto them. Conversely, if you live by the sword, chances are you shall die by the sword.

The choice is yours.

If you believe in self defense you aren't a passivist.No one is arguing against mercy.

I agree that you reep what you sow,but I imagine there is a subtext to you saying that.We as a nation are far more merciful than the nations we are accused of oppressing.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

lucidnightmare wrote: I agree that you reep what you sow,but I imagine there is a subtext to you saying that.We as a nation are far more merciful than the nations we are accused of oppressing.
The United States, in its present form, is by far the most aggressive and oppressive nation that has ever existed on planet Earth.

It has been since at least 1913.

Just b/c you are ignorant of the oppression flowing from the White House, does not mean that it does not exist, and it does not excuse from responsibility for the sins that are being committed in the White House in your name.