Political Crossfire Forums

grapefruit of wisdom · Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 11 Location: New York

As an atheist, I have found there to be no god, or gods and here is my explanation for the Old gods and my explanation for the New.

Along time ago almost all deities originated from the fear of nature. Earthquakes and Flooding: Posidon of course, Thunderstorms: Zeus at target practice. The people of these times came to have a god for everything that was feared. From this comes in the pratice of human sacrifice. When the Tigris and Euphrates rivers flooded they thought that the gods were angry and since every now and then a flood would take lives (and crops) it was only natural to assume that the gods wanted people dead.

More recent Religions have developed once again from our fears our religions have undergone little change compared to their predecessors. The main fear here though (as opposed to flooding, tornados etc.) is death. The reason for this transition from fear of nature to fear of death was because humans have been able to control nature. They are the only species on this planet to take a "god" and turn it into a slave.

At this time people worry so much about death that they turn to various faiths to reduce the pain and give them promises of eternal life. And the reason they're so sucessful is because how could you refuse such amazing promises? They trap people into believeing in miracles because the various participants of these religion SO want to believe anything... even lies.
This would also go to explain why even people that participated of religions that demanded human sacrifice still continued to participate.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Dear Grapefruit,
It is not you, but the attempt to simplify many complex set of relationships that is bound to fail. Keep trying, you are doing fine.

name · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 144

Actually, this makes sense. The relationship made apparent by the author of the topic is a blow to the credibility of most religions, and I must agree: religion is born of human fear as well as human morals. The evidence alluded to in this topic: as human fear evolves, so does religion. Thing is, what we really fear is what we don't understand. It's true- we don't fear nature nearly as much anymore because today, we not only understand more of it, we control a lot of it... so there aren't any more gods of the storm or whatever. But we fear death because that will always be an unknown, and our religions reflect this. For example, the concept of self-sacrifice in many religions: if you sacrifice youself for your god, you go to whatever heaven that religion offers- you no longer face the unknown.

Lee_p413 · Joined: 11 May 2006 Posts: 37 Location: Ohio

The arguement does indeed make sense, on a surface level. However, it does not take into account the complexities of the inner workings of any of these religions, especially the modern ones which we are more intimately familiar with. It also comes down to this: If you do believe in something spiritual or religious, you will justify that belief, and disprove others, by whatever certain means that present themselves. If you do not believe in any religion, you will attempt to explain the fallacy of those who do. Unless you're just apathetic and don't care either way.

Regardless, much substantial proof cannot be offered in either direction, not to mention the lack of a receptive audience for any said proof that even could be found.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

name wrote: Actually, this makes sense. The relationship made apparent by the author of the topic is a blow to the credibility of most religions, and I must agree: religion is born of human fear as well as human morals. The evidence alluded to in this topic: as human fear evolves, so does religion. Thing is, what we really fear is what we don't understand. It's true- we don't fear nature nearly as much anymore because today, we not only understand more of it, we control a lot of it... so there aren't any more gods of the storm or whatever. But we fear death because that will always be an unknown, and our religions reflect this. For example, the concept of self-sacrifice in many religions: if you sacrifice youself for your god, you go to whatever heaven that religion offers- you no longer face the unknown.

The nature we fear is our own: our mortality. People do not necessarily practice religion to day for the same reasons as their parents. The spiritual part of religion, the faith in miracles and outlandish dogma are not much accepted, but are the price one pays for membership in a community, which is also a support group. It is this relationship that is becoming more essential to people in my country because the form of community based on state or nation is not satisfying the needs of people. Government, which should give to people a sense of control in their lives, takes control, and subjects people to many indignities. To go in this age of science and bang on the church doors is an admission that modern forms are not working for people, and so people are reverting to older forms, with a primary aim of acceptance of the acceptable. When a person sacrifices, it is like Jesus: for community and to God. Just as the Romans put great stock in public sacrifice, so should we. No person belongs to a community without sacrifice. Those who say they are a part of this community and lay their sacrifice on another's neck are enemies.

The Austin · Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 149 Location: Nebraska

I disagree with you on your premise that religion is created out of man's fear of nature, death, etc. Instead i believe that religion is more of a yearning for understanding. Just as science tries to understand nature, I believe religion does the same, however, just interprets it a different way.

Let's look at Christianity, it was founded on the teachings of Jesus. Not of fear of death. It was not founded on random people trying to escape death, but on the followers of this man trying to understand his teachings, etc. Almost all modern religions are based on some doctrine, some train of thought, that was introduced by a man.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

The Austin wrote: I disagree with you on your premise that religion is created out of man's fear of nature, death, etc. Instead i believe that religion is more of a yearning for understanding. Just as science tries to understand nature, I believe religion does the same, however, just interprets it a different way.

Let's look at Christianity, it was founded on the teachings of Jesus. Not of fear of death. It was not founded on random people trying to escape death, but on the followers of this man trying to understand his teachings, etc. Almost all modern religions are based on some doctrine, some train of thought, that was introduced by a man.

Religion on a primitive level is a form of technology. Science does not care to understand nature any more than it can control it. If mankind had control it would understand nothing. Religion offers a formula for the control of nature. Look at the covenant of the flood, or Jacob with the sheep using sympathetic magic. And to look at Christianity one finds the new grafted onto the old. In no sense was the teaching of Jesus unique to Judaism, but he fits into a line of prophets who taught in essence many of the same things. The law of Jesus was already old among the Jews: To love God and to love your neighbor. The blessing of God is opposed to the curse of nature under Judaism, but Jesus taught that all are blessed, and elevated the relationship with God to a higher level, because if the nature one is endangered by is human nature then our only defense is a complete identification with God. What Jesus represented, and all Christianity should represent is at a minimum a paradigm shift, and at a maximum, a total change of relationship with God.

Are you a traveling man?

Addison · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 126

Early Judaism had no after life. It is evident in many early verses, including Genesis, Psalms, and Job. The early Hebrews had no concept of Heaven or of Hell, and since this was the precept for Christianity, I don't see how a fear of death plays any role in the evolution of the world's largest religion. Also, the Greeks used their religion to give dramatic flair to things they couldn't understand, like the story of Arachnea and Athena, and how we got spiders. Or Phaethon and the Sun Chariot, and how he flew to close to the earth, dragging the sun behind him as he rode over Africa- inadvertently causing black people. I won't say that many religions don't attempt to define things they don't understand, because many do. The plain fact is, that the early Hebrews had a religion founded on serving God on the moral basis of gratitude and righteousness, with not ideal of eternal life, and not even one of an earthly return on their investments. (See the end chapters of Job, where it discusses the wicked prospering and going unpunished, and the basic "Bad things happen to good people" idea).

And Shintoism, which is basically reverence for ancestors and the worship of them--as well as Confucianism, where are the attempts to explain the unknown in these eastern religions. Buddhism allows enlightenment and an ending Nirvana (wrong term, I think), but not nearly in the context you described. Hinduism, however, used its religion to control the lower castes of untouchables with the ideals of reincarnation and dharma. Zoroastrianism might be a good example of your concept of your eternal life theory, but not one of the explaining the unknown.
-Addison

Anyis · Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 64

In my class last year while discussing Greek mythology. Many of my fellow Christian students laughed at the idea of a God pulling the sun across the sky and whatnot. I find it ironic, since thousands of years ago thousands of ppl believed in Zeus and their Gods just as fervently as most religious people today. Yet still they can laugh at the ideas of some of the past religions. Wouldn't it be a great irony to see children in school's thousands of years from now (if we are still around) scoughing at the ideas of Christianity.

Drey · Joined: 27 Jun 2006 Posts: 49

This a very interesting and thoughtful question.

I am dabbling with the idea that humans invent their gods. Then they invented their religions. It does seem that each cultural paradigm has a religion suited to it.

We do tend to make our religions after what we perceive as our needs. Like in the concept of the heirarchy of needs where different needed items for life are are valued more highly based on how we perceive our need for them.

As we get more and more sophisticated our fundamental needs undergo a transformation and so do our religious needs. The formulation of anti-abortion concepts I would hold out as an example of something that is really 'forced' into existence from a strained reading of the bible.

Five centuries ago a legal/forensic intrepretation of the atonement was developed to give a rationale to how and why the death of Jesus occurred at the hands of deity.

I believe that much of todays touchy feely theology does not understand it in the same way. Some just talk about a vaguge notion of 'love', some are still stuck in the law paradigm.

The most obvious result of constructing god from our desires is that society is then constructed on those same desires as a replication of 'divine will'. If this follows through with the god of the 'religious right' in the U.S. it does not bode good well for progressives.

I am looking forward to the day when man will really take charge and make a human like God in the version that Jesus understood. One who does not keep a record of suppossed wrongs. A god who welcomes all to his table without regard for theological niceties and calls them friend.

Imagine a society based on that concept of god.

Optimist Slime · Joined: 27 Jun 2006 Posts: 67

Drey wrote: This a very interesting and thoughtful question.

I am dabbling with the idea that humans invent their gods. Then they invented their religions. It does seem that each cultural paradigm has a religion suited to it.

We do tend to make our religions after what we perceive as our needs. Like in the concept of the heirarchy of needs where different needed items for life are are valued more highly based on how we perceive our need for them.

As we get more and more sophisticated our fundamental needs undergo a transformation and so do our religious needs. The formulation of anti-abortion concepts I would hold out as an example of something that is really 'forced' into existence from a strained reading of the bible.

Five centuries ago a legal/forensic intrepretation of the atonement was developed to give a rationale to how and why the death of Jesus occurred at the hands of deity.

I believe that much of todays touchy feely theology does not understand it in the same way. Some just talk about a vaguge notion of 'love', some are still stuck in the law paradigm.

The most obvious result of constructing god from our desires is that society is then constructed on those same desires as a replication of 'divine will'. If this follows through with the god of the 'religious right' in the U.S. it does not bode good well for progressives.

I am looking forward to the day when man will really take charge and make a human like God in the version that Jesus understood. One who does not keep a record of suppossed wrongs. A god who welcomes all to his table without regard for theological niceties and calls them friend.

Imagine a society based on that concept of god.

I am the only God you need, the Lord Thomas Wycihowski, God Emperor, Heir to the Throne of David, Messiah, Saviour. All others are false gods.

bob.appleyard · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 7478 Location: Manchestar, innit

My own opinions are somewhat similar. If you take religions prior to pagan religions, then the natural elements were worhipped directly (worshipping the sun, the buffalo, whatever). Then, as society became agricultural/pastoral, and humans began to take over control of the elements, they became anthropomorphised, so human gaces were put onto these elements. With comparatively massive centralisation of power, those functions were abrogated into a single god with a human face.

Man made god in his own image, and how he placed himself within the world he inhabited.

Lord_Drago · Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 8 Location: wisconsin

Grapefruit...How can you preach about religion if you have know faith?
People of the past did not worship nature because they feared it but because they respected and cherished it.

grapefruit of wisdom · Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 11 Location: New York

You see, I am rendering, in this assumption, all religions false; created from our fears. I am preaching but am still holding true to my values as an atheist.

And as for your comment about respect:

Religions today often revolve around our deaths, a possible afterlife, or enlightenment here on earth.

Do you believe we respect Death?
I think that they respected their various God(s) of nature just as much as we respect death in our society and religions.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

I remember when I was a stout Atheist, and I would delve into theories like this about how religion is wrong. :lol:

But times have changed, and while I cannot speak for anyone else, I can say that my faith is born from a personal experience with a flame within my that can only be explained as the Holy Spirit calling me back to the faith of Jesus Christ. I've posted the story many times on these very forums, so I don't feel the need to restate it again; but the point is that my faith is born of love, not fear.

But that's just me.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

LostSoul3412 wrote: I remember when I was a stout Atheist, and I would delve into theories like this about how religion is wrong. :lol:

But times have changed, and while I cannot speak for anyone else, I can say that my faith is born from a personal experience with a flame within my that can only be explained as the Holy Spirit calling me back to the faith of Jesus Christ. I've posted the story many times on these very forums, so I don't feel the need to restate it again; but the point is that my faith is born of love, not fear.

But that's just me.

Not hope, nor fear either. Really? Song of Solomon and all.

God is my faith out of conjecture and not out of truth. But if I did not hope for a justice I do not feel sure enough of to pursue among the living I would have little use for God, and perhaps God has as little use for me in the balance. God is a handy excuse for doing God's work, like one would cover for a drunk everyone likes but who just can't see going to work like its a real job. So what do we say? God is our buddy, and if we blubber into our paws enough on Sunday he might hear the cries of the poor? Live like God does not exist and you will see his handi work. Give justice everywhere and see the justice we all endure as a fact of life, as if living and dieing are both deserve, and live fully enough to welcome death. But to love God? I am no sucky. I live and do my best, but I find it hard to love a slacker.

Trevor Colby · Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Posts: 14 Location: Clearwater, Florida

LostSoul3412 wrote: I remember when I was a stout Atheist, and I would delve into theories like this about how religion is wrong. :lol:

But times have changed, and while I cannot speak for anyone else, I can say that my faith is born from a personal experience with a flame within my that can only be explained as the Holy Spirit calling me back to the faith of Jesus Christ. I've posted the story many times on these very forums, so I don't feel the need to restate it again; but the point is that my faith is born of love, not fear.

But that's just me.

From what you say in your post, I think it might be time to change your user name.

the truth · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject:

name wrote: Actually, this makes sense. The relationship made apparent by the author of the topic is a blow to the credibility of most religions, and I must agree: religion is born of human fear as well as human morals. The evidence alluded to in this topic: as human fear evolves, so does religion. Thing is, what we really fear is what we don't understand. It's true- we don't fear nature nearly as much anymore because today, we not only understand more of it, we control a lot of it... so there aren't any more gods of the storm or whatever. But we fear death because that will always be an unknown, and our religions reflect this. For example, the concept of self-sacrifice in many religions: if you sacrifice youself for your god, you go to whatever heaven that religion offers- you no longer face the unknown.

The basis of Christianity is love not fear. I agree that religion may instill fear, but Christianity is not a religion... it is a faith only. Please read the bible before you post general statements like these. The teachings in the Gospels, especially Christ prove Jesus message is to NOT fear death. He died on the cross for that exact reason. Maybe if more people stopped listening to religion and actually open their eyes and read for themseleves, they wouldn't come to such conclusions as this.

greeneye · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject:

grapefruit of wisdom wrote: Religions today often revolve around our deaths

Can you provide some examples of how you perceive that some of the major religions revolve around our deaths?

Demosthenes_ · Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject:

What did original Christians fear I ask? And if they feared death, doesn't that apply to everyone (or most people)? So if this is true, why aren't everybody Christians?