Political Crossfire Forums

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: ." Well, aside from the fact that Hitler did in fact ban abortion, abortion was already illegal.

cup2006Sens · Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 208

Plodder wrote: Quote: ." Well, aside from the fact that Hitler did in fact ban abortion, abortion was already illegal.

Actually that just isn't true. From http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout/steinem.html

"True idealism," as Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "is nothing but the subordination of the interests and life of the individual to the community. . . . The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species."

Does this begin to sound familiar? It should—because the second flaw in the fervent condemnations of pro-choice advocates as Nazis is that Hitler himself, and the Nazi doctrine he created, were unequivocally opposed to any individual right to abortion. In fact, Hitler's National Socialist Movement preached against and punished contraception, homosexuality, women whose main purpose was not motherhood, men who did not prove their manhood by fathering many children—and anything else that failed to serve the need of preserving and expanding the German state.

A return to a strong family life, women's primary identity as mothers, tax penalties for remaining single, loans for young married couples and subsidies for childbearing, prohibition of prostitution and homosexuality, contraception, and abortion: all these were issues that the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Center Party, and the Nazi Party could agree on. And once Hitler came to power, popularly elected in part by the patriarchal backlash against feminist successes, he delivered on his promise to restore male supremacy.

In 1933, feminists were removed from teaching and other public posts by the same law that removed "non-Aryans" from such jobs. All women were banned from the Reichstag, from judgeships, and from other decision-making posts.

Under Hitler, choosing abortion became sabotage; a crime punishable by hard labor for the woman and a possible death penalty for the abortionist.

• "If the man's world is said to be the State . . . her world is her husband, her family, her children and her home . . . Every child that a woman brings into the world is a battle, a battle waged for the existence of her people.... It is not true ... that respect depends on the overlapping of the spheres of activity of the sexes; this respect demands that neither sex should try to do that which belongs to the sphere of the other."—Hitler's speech to the National Socialist Women's Organization, September, 1934.

This is just one source there are many to do with Hitler and Abortion. And I am not saying this from any ideological perspective, just stating the fact that Hitler banned abortions and that he was very strongly against abortion. (at least for German women) Many people in this thread are unaware of this fact.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5268 Location: Boston, MA

cup2006Sens wrote: Plodder wrote: Quote: ." Well, aside from the fact that Hitler did in fact ban abortion, abortion was already illegal.

Actually that just isn't true. From http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout/steinem.html

"True idealism," as Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "is nothing but the subordination of the interests and life of the individual to the community. . . . The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species."

Does this begin to sound familiar? It should—because the second flaw in the fervent condemnations of pro-choice advocates as Nazis is that Hitler himself, and the Nazi doctrine he created, were unequivocally opposed to any individual right to abortion. In fact, Hitler's National Socialist Movement preached against and punished contraception, homosexuality, women whose main purpose was not motherhood, men who did not prove their manhood by fathering many children—and anything else that failed to serve the need of preserving and expanding the German state.

A return to a strong family life, women's primary identity as mothers, tax penalties for remaining single, loans for young married couples and subsidies for childbearing, prohibition of prostitution and homosexuality, contraception, and abortion: all these were issues that the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Center Party, and the Nazi Party could agree on. And once Hitler came to power, popularly elected in part by the patriarchal backlash against feminist successes, he delivered on his promise to restore male supremacy.

In 1933, feminists were removed from teaching and other public posts by the same law that removed "non-Aryans" from such jobs. All women were banned from the Reichstag, from judgeships, and from other decision-making posts.

Under Hitler, choosing abortion became sabotage; a crime punishable by hard labor for the woman and a possible death penalty for the abortionist.

• "If the man's world is said to be the State . . . her world is her husband, her family, her children and her home . . . Every child that a woman brings into the world is a battle, a battle waged for the existence of her people.... It is not true ... that respect depends on the overlapping of the spheres of activity of the sexes; this respect demands that neither sex should try to do that which belongs to the sphere of the other."—Hitler's speech to the National Socialist Women's Organization, September, 1934.

This is just one source there are many to do with Hitler and Abortion. And I am not saying this from any ideological perspective, just stating the fact that Hitler banned abortions and that he was very strongly against abortion. (at least for German women) Many people in this thread are unaware of this fact.

Hitler opposed abortion on the basis that he wanted and needed more "perfect" Germans to build up his military and his countries power. Notice he didn't mind terminating the lives of millions of others whom he thought to be a problem for him.

Hitler had no moral objection to abortion he had a military and economic objection to it, it is not relevant to the discussion of abortion in the context the prolife movement which seeks to protect ALL human life, not just those that meet a specific set of military and economic objectives.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Who the hell cares what Hitlers beliefs were on ANYTHING? Abortion is killing human beings.

The Central Scrutinizer · Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:20 am Post subject:

AllAmericanMan wrote: Who the hell cares what Hitlers beliefs were on ANYTHING? Abortion is killing human beings.

Apparently the original poster, who hit Godwin on the topic starter. Compare abortion to Nazism, then obviously we care what Hitler believed in the context of this thread.

And so as I previously claimed, the argument is boiled down to the basic question, and is pointless.

Green · Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject:

cup2006Sens wrote: Abortion is thousands of years old. So it isn't like we just suddenly started having abortions in the last lew decades or something.

Of corse. We've had abortions since we invented pointy objects. We just killed the baby after it was born, not not before. Both times it was immoral.

In the Giver, they kill babies after they are born.

Green · Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject:

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Well, if all of a sudden everyone stopped dying, society would probably stop spinning.

Every few decades we have a war for the "sake of the free world," and the deaths of our soldiers keep society spinning.

Every life ends in death. Your arguments are nonsensical because you seem to claim that society can function in some other way. Societies, from the first to the most recent, are built on corpses. Is that morally right? Maybe not. But don't try to pretend it's a novel phenomenon.

Abortion is murder. I should have said murder over there. Society can function of normal death. Death from an accident or when your day has come.

The last time we actually had a war "for the sake of the free world" was WWII,

The Central Scrutinizer · Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject:

Green wrote:
The last time we actually had a war "for the sake of the free world" was WWII,

No, that's pretty much been the justification of every American war, ever.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

The correlation between hitler and abortion form my perspective is that Hitler belived that Jews were not worthy of life so he had them exterminated. Soem women belive that their children are not worthy of life so they kill them too. My correlation is that they are both murder becsue boith belive tht neither are human.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9393

Plodder wrote: The correlation between hitler and abortion form my perspective is that Hitler belived that Jews were not worthy of life so he had them exterminated. Soem women belive that their children are not worthy of life so they kill them too. My correlation is that they are both murder becsue boith belive tht neither are human. Would you give up on the Hitler analogies? If you don't have anything better in your argumentative aresenal than to compare pro-choice advocates to Hitler or Nazis, then you truly have nothing. Comparing people (regardless of the issue at hand) to Hitler or the Nazis does little more than perpetuate the idea that your arguments are without merit and being carried by emotional appeal alone.

cup2006Sens · Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 208

UrielsFyre wrote: Plodder wrote: The correlation between hitler and abortion form my perspective is that Hitler belived that Jews were not worthy of life so he had them exterminated. Soem women belive that their children are not worthy of life so they kill them too. My correlation is that they are both murder becsue boith belive tht neither are human. Would you give up on the Hitler analogies? If you don't have anything better in your argumentative aresenal than to compare pro-choice advocates to Hitler or Nazis, then you truly have nothing. Comparing people (regardless of the issue at hand) to Hitler or the Nazis does little more than perpetuate the idea that your arguments are without merit and being carried by emotional appeal alone.

Exactly, It is a widely known about debates that the first person to play the Hitler card loses.

Addison · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 126

Funny thing, the word Utopian was coined first as Eutopia, meaning "happy place", the prefix "eu" meaning "true, happy", and "topia" being the greek for "land, place." However, combining it with "ootopia", meaning "no (such) place", we derive the word Utopia, meaning a perfect society which is, by definition, impossible to achieve. Just some etymology. The full explanation can be found at: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Utopia, and, in its original text, at http://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Utopia.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: Would you give up on the Hitler analogies? If you don't have anything better in your argumentative aresenal than to compare pro-choice advocates to Hitler or Nazis, then you truly have nothing. Comparing people (regardless of the issue at hand) to Hitler or the Nazis does little more than perpetuate the idea that your arguments are without merit and being carried by emotional appeal alone. what a pathetic attempt to refute my argumant. can you make up anything better?

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9393

Plodder wrote: Quote: Would you give up on the Hitler analogies? If you don't have anything better in your argumentative aresenal than to compare pro-choice advocates to Hitler or Nazis, then you truly have nothing. Comparing people (regardless of the issue at hand) to Hitler or the Nazis does little more than perpetuate the idea that your arguments are without merit and being carried by emotional appeal alone. what a pathetic attempt to refute my argumant. can you make up anything better? And what, exactly, would be your argument? That people who are not vehemently anti-abortion are Nazis? Because, let's face it, that seems to be what you presented.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: And what, exactly, would be your argument? That people who are not vehemently anti-abortion are Nazis? Because, let's face it, that seems to be what you presented. no im saying that if we use the same argumant that you use to justify abortion, then the Nazis were also justified in their actions. its simple,

The Grandmaster · Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:16 am Post subject:

Plodder wrote: Quote: Would you give up on the Hitler analogies? If you don't have anything better in your argumentative aresenal than to compare pro-choice advocates to Hitler or Nazis, then you truly have nothing. Comparing people (regardless of the issue at hand) to Hitler or the Nazis does little more than perpetuate the idea that your arguments are without merit and being carried by emotional appeal alone. what a pathetic attempt to refute my argumant. can you make up anything better?

Are you really in a position to tell other their refutations are pathetic?...

Plodder in the morning after pill thread wrote: What a retarded comment.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

no refutaion i see except one usage of quick anger.

The Central Scrutinizer · Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:00 am Post subject:

Plodder wrote: The correlation between hitler and abortion form my perspective is that Hitler belived that Jews were not worthy of life so he had them exterminated. Soem women belive that their children are not worthy of life so they kill them too. My correlation is that they are both murder becsue boith belive tht neither are human.

Here is your argument:

P1) Hitler believed Jews were not worthy of life so he had them killed.
P2) Women do not believe their children are worthy of life so they have them killed.
C) Both actions are murder because neither believes their victim is worthy of life.

The definition of murder does not include the clause that the murderer believes the victim is less than human. Murder is defined as "to unlawfully or unjustifiably kill another human being." No mention of the murderer's opinion of the victim's humanity.

Secondly, who are you to say that the justification of abortion is that fetuses are not "worthy" of life? Please explain this further.

Politics Mstr · Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 48 Location: California

I agree. Two wonderful books that are becoming reality.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: The definition of murder does not include the clause that the murderer believes the victim is less than human. Murder is defined as "to unlawfully or unjustifiably kill another human being." No mention of the murderer's opinion of the victim's humanity. unlawful. that is the key. You see Hitler's Holocaust was technichally leagal therefore it is not murder correct? however, anyone with common sense can see that it is murder.You cannot define murder in that way because sometimes legal killing can still be murder.