Political Crossfire Forums

ew713 · Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 81 Location: Seattle, WA

I recently finished the Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness along with the movie Apocalypse Now!...I have been thinking about what Conrad is trying to tell us...his audience.

The idea of contrasting being in and out of society is great. The image of Kurtz as someone who has left society, but has lived fully v. the image of living in society but being nothing...I just cannot get it out of my head.

What do you think? Is living in society with all of its restriction worth the life that will never fully be lived?

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

ew713 wrote: I recently finished the Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness along with the movie Apocalypse Now!...I have been thinking about what Conrad is trying to tell us...his audience.

The idea of contrasting being in and out of society is great. The image of Kurtz as someone who has left society, but has lived fully v. the image of living in society but being nothing...I just cannot get it out of my head.

What do you think? Is living in society with all of its restriction worth the life that will never fully be lived?

If you define a life fully lived as short, futile, pointless, sterile, and lonely then you better consider an incentive plan. To presume there is a choice is to suggest that death does not settle the issue, and make all life, and any life, seem like fully living. The rejection of society only brings on a state of pre-death. To live fully as an individual requires only the consciousness of an individual, which defines a line between the self and the society, which the social individual steps over, and the outlaw defends.

ew713 · Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 81 Location: Seattle, WA

but with Kurtz, he lived a terrible life outside of society, yet it was a full one...i am trying to make sense of the book, i am trying to figure out what conrad is trying to tell me the reader...

Cato · Joined: 28 Jul 2004 Posts: 1274 Location: Ottawa, ON

Quote: I recently finished the Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness along with the movie Apocalypse Now!...I have been thinking about what Conrad is trying to tell us...his audience.

Striking book, isn't it? The general feeling I get from Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now is much like that I get from reading Nietzsche and Schopenhauer: a deep, self-affirming sense of horror, that of 'staring into the abyss', as it were. A very, very effective story... 'The horror! The horror!'

Quote: The idea of contrasting being in and out of society is great. The image of Kurtz as someone who has left society, but has lived fully v. the image of living in society but being nothing...I just cannot get it out of my head.

Contrasting being in and out of society? I don't think I follow you. Maybe you could give some examples from the book? I always thought it was about the evil of letting your cultural/social obligations override your moral prerogatives. But I could be completely off.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

ew713 wrote: but with Kurtz, he lived a terrible life outside of society, yet it was a full one...i am trying to make sense of the book, i am trying to figure out what conrad is trying to tell me the reader...

I don't know if he left society as much as he joined a more primitive one, and there were references to the empty villages were people were taken from as slaves, and people starving to death, so Kurt's actions constitute a revolution of sorts, imo.
Jack London may have done a take on this story, as he was not against plagiarism and he admired Conrad. I think there is a sort of recognition of equality, or perhaps superiority of some of the native peoples coupled with a contempt of Europeans; and for that man cut off from civilization too long there is fear. There is some limbo quality to the primitives that appealed to some of these Europeans, and you can read a book from between the wars, I think called Journey to the End of the Night. I don't want to agree with Nietzsche, or seem to; but some Europeans sense how unnatural, and emotionally unsatisfying is our civilization. In our desire to control nature it is our own nature that is controlled. Better to leave some things to chance.

ew713 · Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 81 Location: Seattle, WA

Cato wrote: Contrasting being in and out of society? I don't think I follow you. Maybe you could give some examples from the book? I always thought it was about the evil of letting your cultural/social obligations override your moral prerogatives. But I could be completely off.

Sorry, so like this is what my english teacher was suggesting/throwing out to our socratic seminar...think of society as a box...the bounds of that box are what keep us in...those are our morals and those around us who tell us when we get off the beaten path (refered to as neighbors in the passage). Kurtz was out of that box while marlow came from within the box to kurtz outside...the company who didnt understand was in the box...anyway here is the quote...kinda long...but thanks

page 81 in my book

"Everything belonged to him - but that was a trifle. The thing was to know what he belonged to, how many powers of darkness claimed him for their own. That was the reflection that made you creepy all over. It was impossible - it was not good for one either - trying to imagine. He had taken a high seat amongst the devils of the land - i mean literally. You can't understand. How could you? - with solid pavement under your feet, surrounded by kind neighbours ready to cheer you or to fall on you, stepping delicately between the butcher and the policeman, in the holy terror of scandal and gallows and lunatic asylums - how can you imagine what particular region of the first ages a man's untrammelled feet may take him into by the way of solitude - utter solitude without a policeman - by the way of silence - utter silence, where no warning voice of a kind neighbour can be heard whispering of public opinion? These little things make all the difference. When they are gone you must fall upon your own innate strength, upon your own capacity for faithfulness. Of course you may be too much of a fool to go wrong - too dull even to know you are being assaulted by the powers of darkness. I take it, no fool ever made a bargain for his soul with the devil: the fool is too much of a fool, or the devil too much of a devil - i dont know which. Or you may be such a thunderingly exalted creature as to be altogether deaf and blind to anything but heavenly sights and sounds. Then the earth for you is only a standing place - and whether to be like this is your loss or your gain i wont pretend to say. But most of us are neither one nor the other. The earth for us is a place to live in, where we must put up with sights, and sounds, with smells too, by Jove! - breathe dead hippo, so to speak, strength comes in, the faith in your ability for the digging of unostentatious holes to bury the stuff in - your power of devotion, not to yourself, but to an obscure, back-breaking business."
(i said it was long)

So my english teacher gave us this quote and he wanted us to talk about it...we didnt have much time left, but what we did start to discuss is this "back breaking business". We decided this must be living with morals or living in society.

Sorry, i cant remember how we drew that conclusion...i will talk to him...but what do you think about this quote...i think there is a lot to be discussed.

The Impeacher · Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2928 Location: Everywhere

ew713 wrote: Cato wrote: Contrasting being in and out of society? I don't think I follow you. Maybe you could give some examples from the book? I always thought it was about the evil of letting your cultural/social obligations override your moral prerogatives. But I could be completely off.

Sorry, so like this is what my english teacher was suggesting/throwing out to our socratic seminar...think of society as a box...the bounds of that box are what keep us in...those are our morals and those around us who tell us when we get off the beaten path (refered to as neighbors in the passage). Kurtz was out of that box while marlow came from within the box to kurtz outside...the company who didnt understand was in the box...anyway here is the quote...kinda long...but thanks

page 81 in my book

"Everything belonged to him - but that was a trifle. The thing was to know what he belonged to, how many powers of darkness claimed him for their own. That was the reflection that made you creepy all over. It was impossible - it was not good for one either - trying to imagine. He had taken a high seat amongst the devils of the land - i mean literally. You can't understand. How could you? - with solid pavement under your feet, surrounded by kind neighbours ready to cheer you or to fall on you, stepping delicately between the butcher and the policeman, in the holy terror of scandal and gallows and lunatic asylums - how can you imagine what particular region of the first ages a man's untrammelled feet may take him into by the way of solitude - utter solitude without a policeman - by the way of silence - utter silence, where no warning voice of a kind neighbour can be heard whispering of public opinion? These little things make all the difference. When they are gone you must fall upon your own innate strength, upon your own capacity for faithfulness. Of course you may be too much of a fool to go wrong - too dull even to know you are being assaulted by the powers of darkness. I take it, no fool ever made a bargain for his soul with the devil: the fool is too much of a fool, or the devil too much of a devil - i dont know which. Or you may be such a thunderingly exalted creature as to be altogether deaf and blind to anything but heavenly sights and sounds. Then the earth for you is only a standing place - and whether to be like this is your loss or your gain i wont pretend to say. But most of us are neither one nor the other. The earth for us is a place to live in, where we must put up with sights, and sounds, with smells too, by Jove! - breathe dead hippo, so to speak, strength comes in, the faith in your ability for the digging of unostentatious holes to bury the stuff in - your power of devotion, not to yourself, but to an obscure, back-breaking business."
(i said it was long)

So my english teacher gave us this quote and he wanted us to talk about it...we didnt have much time left, but what we did start to discuss is this "back breaking business". We decided this must be living with morals or living in society.

Sorry, i cant remember how we drew that conclusion...i will talk to him...but what do you think about this quote...i think there is a lot to be discussed.

actually, imho what Conrad is suggesting is that human nature is essentially defined by society - that the essence of our nature is impulsive and destructive - ie, the heart of darkness.

alternately, he may be suggesting that the mind, and thus the evolution of society is the "light" - as the the trip into the jungle is a methphor for leaving modernity and entering [returing to] the natural human condition.

when you get a chance what the "Redux" version of Apocalyspe Now and realize that each time the boat stops is essentially a stage of human/societal development.

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13376 Location: Berkeley

Cato wrote: Quote: I recently finished the Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness along with the movie Apocalypse Now!...I have been thinking about what Conrad is trying to tell us...his audience.

Striking book, isn't it? The general feeling I get from Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now is much like that I get from reading Nietzsche and Schopenhauer: a deep, self-affirming sense of horror, that of 'staring into the abyss', as it were. A very, very effective story... 'The horror! The horror!'

Quote: The idea of contrasting being in and out of society is great. The image of Kurtz as someone who has left society, but has lived fully v. the image of living in society but being nothing...I just cannot get it out of my head.

Contrasting being in and out of society? I don't think I follow you. Maybe you could give some examples from the book? I always thought it was about the evil of letting your cultural/social obligations override your moral prerogatives. But I could be completely off.

That's exactly what I got from it, too.

Also, the whole "them vs. me" struggle, with "them" being one's society, personal problems, insanity, etc.

Vazul · Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 22

ew713 wrote: I recently finished the Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness along with the movie Apocalypse Now!...I have been thinking about what Conrad is trying to tell us...his audience.

The idea of contrasting being in and out of society is great. The image of Kurtz as someone who has left society, but has lived fully v. the image of living in society but being nothing...I just cannot get it out of my head.

What do you think? Is living in society with all of its restriction worth the life that will never fully be lived?

Heart of Darkness seeks to address the dangers of imperialist movements. The sense of alienation that the lead character felt, the creeping insanity of two conflicting worldviews coexisting, is quite telling of this. It speaks of the objectification of man which followed the rationalist movement called the Renaissance, and how it ultimately led to the dissolution of Spirit.