Political Crossfire Forums

[Gilbert1908]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: What choice are supporting by supporting the mother's right to choose an abortion?

The choice of abortion itself. A mother's freedom from pregnancy, and parents' decisions with their potential child. It is my personal opinion that government should stay out of the families of Americans, and that no one else has any right to tell another what to do with their own bodies.

Gilbert1908 wrote: How is possible to support the right to a thing but not the thing itself.

Simple, because I support the choice, not the action. I am not arguing whether or not a mother should have an abortion, that's their decision to make, however, I argue that the option should be made available to the mother.

Gilbert1908 wrote: How can you NOT support abortion but support the right to have an abortion?

Through the choice of the individual. Choice is the tenant of liberty, and even if I disagree with a mother's choice to have an abortion (which I do), I can still respect their decision none the less, as it is their body, their choice, and not mine.

Gilbert1908 wrote: Do you at leaset see the duplicitousness of such a position.

If you feel that way about the position of pro-choice, then I hope this post can clarify some misunderstandings.

Gilbert1908 wrote: What if I were to state my opposition to capital punishment that way?

You mean to allow the government to use it, but disagree with it? That would be perfectly acceptable, under the argument that security is more important than freedom, even though both are good things to have.

Gilbert1908 wrote: I do not support capital punishment but I support the right of the state to choose.

See above.

Why do you not support abortion?

[LostSoul3412]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Why do you not support abortion?

I do not support it for my potential children for the simple fact that they are my potential children. I understand that they are not yet human lives, but they have the potential to become actual lives. It is a choice that I make to allow my potentials to become actuals, but it is an individual choice, and I cannot expect anyone else to follow my moral code.

[Gilbert1908]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Why do you not support abortion?

I do not support it for my potential children for the simple fact that they are my potential children. I understand that they are not yet human lives, but they have the potential to become actual lives. It is a choice that I make to allow my potentials to become actuals, but it is an individual choice, and I cannot expect anyone else to follow my moral code.

But what is the reason that do you do not support it for your potential children?

[WsTxRedRaider06]

Prole wrote: RedRaider, reversing your question, why do you as someone who refers to science (in terms of speciation) as a source of determining personhood and/or legal protection, insist on using such unscientific terms like "baby" and "child"?

I dont insist on using such terms. I usually use the term "unborn". It usually allows to keep a discussion going, without someone picking apart the terms I use, to refer to the same thing. I simply ask why it is impossible to keep a discussion going, when I use the term "unborn child"

[LostSoul3412]

Gilbert1908 wrote: But what is the reason that do you do not support it for your potential children?

Basically put, because they are mine.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: Basically put, because they are mine. I thought they werent individuals?

[LostSoul3412]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: Basically put, because they are mine. I thought they werent individuals?

They aren't. They are potential lives that share my blood, and are my creation. That does not make them human, or individuals, but they are mine. That is why I would not want an abortion performed on my potentials.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: and are my creation

If theyre created what are they? Individuals of course. That is why you value them as your own.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: They are potential lives
Ok listen...


Potential defines value.
Species defines individual.

The egg and sperm are the potential human individual.
The embryo is a potential adult, an actual individual.

The embryo brings with itself into existence self defining value. It is a human organism not a potential one. It is a potential adult. The destinction is extremely important and can not be denied medically.

[LostSoul3412]

AllAmericanMan wrote: If theyre created what are they? Individuals of course. That is why you value them as your own.

You're putting words in my mouth. They are embryos created by my sperm, and the mother's egg. They are the potential life that I have helped to create, but are not yet individuals. I value them as my own because they are of my blood, but cannot share that blood just yet. They are embryos that hold the potential to become my children. They are not individuals, they are not beings, and they are not human, but they are mine.

[Gilbert1908]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: But what is the reason that do you do not support it for your potential children?

Basically put, because they are mine.

You are not providing the reason you don't support it for yourself and that is what I am asking. A pimple is yours too but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be happy to see it gone.

Why would you be protective of something which you do not believe exists?

[WsTxRedRaider06]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Why do you not support abortion?

I do not support it for my potential children for the simple fact that they are my potential children. I understand that they are not yet human lives, but they have the potential to become actual lives. It is a choice that I make to allow my potentials to become actuals, but it is an individual choice, and I cannot expect anyone else to follow my moral code.

Would this include your wife, girlfriend, etc? You are pro-choice, so you turn your back and allow people to choose abortion, so by your stance, you would also turn your back and allow your wife/gf, etc., to choose to abort your potential born children. You might be pro-life when it comes to you personally, but when it comes to your wife/gf, you cannot expect anyone else to follow your moral code. Right? So you may not support it for your potential born children, but you cannot tell your wife/gf what to do with the situation, for you just said it is an individual choice. So you would not try and talk her out of an abortion, right? You would stand by her in making the decision to abort your potential born children, right? For it is her individual choice, and that is the choice that you fight for, her choice to chose abortion.

Im having a hard time getting a grasp on this "pro-life for me, pro-choice for you" stance. By being pro-choice, you re for the right to make the choice of abortion, which ultimatle falls into the hands of the woman. So infact, you stand by the woman, in whatever choice she makes.

When it comes to you personally, you choose to be "pro-life", for your own potential born children. So do you stand by the woman, when she chooses abortion as the fate of your potential born children? Or in this case, do you fight for the life of the unborn, simply because it is yours?

[LostSoul3412]

WsTxRedRaider06 wrote: Would this include your wife, girlfriend, etc? You are pro-choice, so you turn your back and allow people to choose abortion, so by your stance, you would also turn your back and allow your wife/gf, etc., to choose to abort your potential born children. You might be pro-life when it comes to you personally, but when it comes to your wife/gf, you cannot expect anyone else to follow your moral code. Right? So you may not support it for your potential born children, but you cannot tell your wife/gf what to do with the situation, for you just said it is an individual choice. So you would not try and talk her out of an abortion, right? You would stand by her in making the decision to abort your potential born children, right? For it is her individual choice, and that is the choice that you fight for, her choice to chose abortion.

Indeed, I cannot expect my significant other to agree with me on everything. However, since we are the two parents on the issue, then we would have to come to an agreement. For example, she wanted to have an abortion, and I did not, hopefully we would compromise and agree on an adoption. As the two parents of the potential child, it is up to us to come to a decision on what to do.

WsTxRedRaider06 wrote: Im having a hard time getting a grasp on this "pro-life for me, pro-choice for you" stance. By being pro-choice, you re for the right to make the choice of abortion, which ultimatle falls into the hands of the woman. So infact, you stand by the woman, in whatever choice she makes.

It is within her womb, so I believe that she should have the final say in the matter, yes. However, as the potential father, I have a say in the matter too.

WsTxRedRaider06 wrote: When it comes to you personally, you choose to be "pro-life", for your own potential born children. So do you stand by the woman, when she chooses abortion as the fate of your potential born children? Or in this case, do you fight for the life of the unborn, simply because it is yours?

I do not fight for the life of the unborn, I fight for the potential life of the unborn. My embryos are no different from anyone elses', the only true difference is that they are mine. They are not individuals, they are not beings, they are not people. However, would be my choice to let them become actual beings, and then put them up for adoption, should I be unable to provide them with the life that they deserve.

[LostSoul3412]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Ok listen...


Potential defines value.
Species defines individual.

The egg and sperm are the potential human individual.
The embryo is a potential adult, an actual individual.

The embryo brings with itself into existence self defining value. It is a human organism not a potential one. It is a potential adult. The destinction is extremely important and can not be denied medically.

:roll:

Call it what you will, and I will continue to call it what I will.

[LostSoul3412]

Gilbert1908 wrote: You are not providing the reason you don't support it for yourself and that is what I am asking. A pimple is yours too but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be happy to see it gone.

Why would you be protective of something which you do not believe exists?

A pimple does not carry on my blood, nor does it leave a mark upon the world. I personally believe that a child is the greatest legacy that any could leave behind in the world, but that is a personal belief. Just as my personal beliefs lead me to support the choice of others, it also leads me to support the potential life of my potential children.

[AllAmericanMan]

LostSoul3412 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Ok listen...


Potential defines value.
Species defines individual.

The egg and sperm are the potential human individual.
The embryo is a potential adult, an actual individual.

The embryo brings with itself into existence self defining value. It is a human organism not a potential one. It is a potential adult. The destinction is extremely important and can not be denied medically.

:roll:

Call it what you will, and I will continue to call it what I will.

As usual you cant debate the issue logically.

[WsTxRedRaider06]

LostSoul3412 wrote: WsTxRedRaider06 wrote: Would this include your wife, girlfriend, etc? You are pro-choice, so you turn your back and allow people to choose abortion, so by your stance, you would also turn your back and allow your wife/gf, etc., to choose to abort your potential born children. You might be pro-life when it comes to you personally, but when it comes to your wife/gf, you cannot expect anyone else to follow your moral code. Right? So you may not support it for your potential born children, but you cannot tell your wife/gf what to do with the situation, for you just said it is an individual choice. So you would not try and talk her out of an abortion, right? You would stand by her in making the decision to abort your potential born children, right? For it is her individual choice, and that is the choice that you fight for, her choice to chose abortion.

Indeed, I cannot expect my significant other to agree with me on everything. However, since we are the two parents on the issue, then we would have to come to an agreement. For example, she wanted to have an abortion, and I did not, hopefully we would compromise and agree on an adoption. As the two parents of the potential child, it is up to us to come to a decision on what to do.

WsTxRedRaider06 wrote: Im having a hard time getting a grasp on this "pro-life for me, pro-choice for you" stance. By being pro-choice, you re for the right to make the choice of abortion, which ultimatle falls into the hands of the woman. So infact, you stand by the woman, in whatever choice she makes.

It is within her womb, so I believe that she should have the final say in the matter, yes. However, as the potential father, I have a say in the matter too.

WsTxRedRaider06 wrote: When it comes to you personally, you choose to be "pro-life", for your own potential born children. So do you stand by the woman, when she chooses abortion as the fate of your potential born children? Or in this case, do you fight for the life of the unborn, simply because it is yours?

I do not fight for the life of the unborn, I fight for the potential life of the unborn. My embryos are no different from anyone elses', the only true difference is that they are mine. They are not individuals, they are not beings, they are not people. However, would be my choice to let them become actual beings, and then put them up for adoption, should I be unable to provide them with the life that they deserve.

So the potential born child, holds no value to you? If it did, you would also fight for the potential born children of others, would you not? You just said yours are no different than anyone elses. I agree, which is why I fight for the life for all unborn children. Is it not a bit selfish to say, "this one is only important, because it is mine."? You only fight for the "potential life"(as you call it), because it involves you.

I dont know if you have children or not, but when and if you do, they are very lucky to have someone who would chose to let them live and be born into this world, and fight for that potential to be born, and grow, and live life. Others however, are not quite so lucky, and never get that chance. How can someone not value life anymore than that? Freedoms and Libertys are different all over the world. Someplaces have more, some have less, all over the world. All over the world what you can and cannot do, what choices you can and cannot make, are different. One thing that is consistent, all over the world, no matter where you live, is life.

[LostSoul3412]

AllAmericanMan wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Ok listen...


Potential defines value.
Species defines individual.

The egg and sperm are the potential human individual.
The embryo is a potential adult, an actual individual.

The embryo brings with itself into existence self defining value. It is a human organism not a potential one. It is a potential adult. The destinction is extremely important and can not be denied medically.

:roll:

Call it what you will, and I will continue to call it what I will.

As usual you cant debate the issue logically.

Just as you cannot debate the issue respectfully. I have had this debate with you many times, on other threads, in an attempt to keep the topic of fdiscussion on this thread constant, I will keep this debate to those other threads.

[LostSoul3412]

WsTxRedRaider06 wrote: So the potential born child, holds no value to you? If it did, you would also fight for the potential born children of others, would you not? You just said yours are no different than anyone elses. I agree, which is why I fight for the life for all unborn children. Is it not a bit selfish to say, "this one is only important, because it is mine."? You only fight for the "potential life"(as you call it), because it involves you.

Is it selfish to put your own potential children above another? I value my embryos because they carry my blood, just as every parent should for their own embryo, however, I cannot force someone to assign value to something that is their's. I cannot tell another to value their embryo, as that is a choice that they must make on their own. My embryos are no different than any other embryo speaking in material terms, but that does not mean that they hold equal value. My own life is no different than the life of any other human, but is it selfish to value myself more than another? Value is a subjective concept, differing from person to person. I can assign a greater value to my own embryo than someone else can, but that does not change what the embryo itself is. My embryo hold value to me, but I cannot expect it to hold value to anyone else, just as I cannot except another to put the same value on their potential child.

WsTxRedRaider06 wrote: I dont know if you have children or not, but when and if you do, they are very lucky to have someone who would chose to let them live and be born into this world, and fight for that potential to be born, and grow, and live life. Others however, are not quite so lucky, and never get that chance. How can someone not value life anymore than that? Freedoms and Libertys are different all over the world. Someplaces have more, some have less, all over the world. All over the world what you can and cannot do, what choices you can and cannot make, are different. One thing that is consistent, all over the world, no matter where you live, is life.

Those are you personal beliefs, and you are entitled to them, however they are not absolute constants. Any gift that we are granted is a blessing, but to attempt to play God and grant those blessings is to be consumed by our own arrogance. To force life upon the world is the same goal that plagued Victor Frankenstein, only to learn that his creation would destroy him. To attempt to play God with the lives of mortals, is to assert yourself above others, to view yourself as the moral right, where others are wrong. Right and wrong are not things that can be decided on an absolute scale by mere mortal (wo)men, and such things cannot be decided for others. In the absence of absolute, we are left with the subjective... we are left with choice.

[Gilbert1908]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: You are not providing the reason you don't support it for yourself and that is what I am asking. A pimple is yours too but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be happy to see it gone.

Why would you be protective of something which you do not believe exists?

A pimple does not carry on my blood, nor does it leave a mark upon the world. I personally believe that a child is the greatest legacy that any could leave behind in the world, but that is a personal belief. Just as my personal beliefs lead me to support the choice of others, it also leads me to support the potential life of my potential children.

I am sincerely trying to understand what it is that makes you oppose the termination of your own embryo other than "it is mine", which honestly doesn't seem like a very well thought out reason. But if that is it , that is it.