Political Crossfire Forums

[Darth Tiberius]

OK, I just remembered I was wrong when I was finding the site to prove that the Catholic church was involved in killings of socialists and part of many anti-semetic action including not condemning Nazi camps.

It wasn't Pope John Paul. It was Pope Pius XII. I found the site showing how him and his Vatican were encouraging facist groups in South America to kill socialists.

But I found many of the links to sites I lost showing the crimes of the Catholic church.

[Gilbert1908]

Darth Tiberius wrote: OK, I just remembered I was wrong when I was finding the site to prove that the Catholic church was involved in killings of socialists and part of many anti-semetic action including not condemning Nazi camps.

It wasn't Pope John Paul. It was Pope Pius XII. I found the site showing how him and his Vatican were encouraging facist groups in South America to kill socialists.

But I found many of the links to sites I lost showing the crimes of the Catholic church.

OK so Pope Pius was encouraging fascist groups in South America? Fine where are the links.

By the way here is what some noted Jews of the time including Einstein and Golda Meir former Prime Minister of Israel and the New York Times of the time (not exactly anti-semetic and pro Catholic) had to say about Pope Pius XII and his actions to assist Jews during WWII.

No doubt the information you have stumbled upon is that in the book "Hitler's Pope" by John Cromwell who, like you, has never met a Catholic he can stand. It is not just a bad book it is bad history.



Vatican Denounces Atrocities in Poland, Vatican Reveals Terrors in Poland. The articles stated "Jews and Poles are being herded into separate ghettos, hermetically sealed and pitifully inadequate for the economic subsistence of the million destined to live there" New York Times (1/23/1940).

In its editorial The Times refers to The Vatican’s indictment against the Nazis –
Vatican Amplifies Atrocity Reports, Weight of Papacy Put Behind Exposure of Nazi Excesses in Poland: "Now the Vatican has spoken, with authority that cannot be questioned, and has confirmed the worst intimations of terror which have come out of Polish darkness" New York Times (1/24/1940).

Reporting the confrontational meeting with Herr von Rippentrop (German Foreign Minister), on March 14, 1940, the New York Times headlines were Jews Rights Defended :" It was also learned today.. .that the Pontiff, in burning words about religious persecution, also came to the defense of the Jews,"

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):
The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16) states:
This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things.


Dr. Raphael Cantoni, Head, Italian Jewish Assistance Committee –“When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of the Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace. “

Golda Meir- “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I felt a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty “

Albert Einstein- December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38- “Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...
Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreserved.”

Pinchas Lapide-Jewish Scholar and Author-“What cannot be questioned is the integrity, the charity, and the deep commitment to humanity of Pius XII. It is idle to speculate about what more he could have done, for unlike most of the leaders of his day, he did very much.”

Lapide notes a book by the Jewish historian, Jenoe Levai, entitled, The Church Did Not Keep Silent (p. 256). He admits that everyone, including himself, could have done more. ““If we condemn Pius, then justice would demand condemning everyone else.” He concludes by quoting from the Talmud that "whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved a whole world." With this he claims that Pius XII deserves a memorial forest of 860,000 trees in the Judean hills” (pp. 268-9)..

David Herstig concludes his book :"Those rescued by Pius are today living all over the world. There went to Israel alone from Romania 360,000 to the year 1965."In Hungary, an estimated 80,000 baptismal certificates were issued by Church authorities to Jews. In other areas of Eastern Europe the Vatican escape network (organized via Bulgaria by the Nuncio Roncalli - later John XXIII) has impressed those writers who have studied the subject, with the effectiveness of the Church's rescue operation.”

[Saf]

Beatification is nonsense.

[Gilbert1908]

Saf wrote: Beatification is nonsense.

That would have more meaning if you knew what beatification actually was as opposed to what you thinkit is.


Why would designating a Catholic as blessed be nonsense? Unless of course you believe that Catholicism is nonsense, in which case why would any Catholic care in the least what YOU thought?