Political Crossfire Forums

[mojo]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060526/ap_on_re_eu/poland_pope

Quote: KRAKOW, Poland -
Pope Benedict XVI encouraged prayers Friday for the beatification of his predecessor,
Pope John Paul II, an eagerly awaited remark on a cause close to the hearts of many Poles.

Benedict has referred to John Paul as a great pope, "my beloved predecessor" and quoted from him extensively, but Poles were awaiting word on the beatification. Some even hoped Benedict would announce it during his four-day Poland tour.

Thousands of people lined the streets as Benedict rode through Krakow's central old town in his popemobile, giving him a loud and enthusiastic welcome in the city where the Polish-born John Paul served as archbishop before becoming pope.

Outside the archbishop's residence, where Benedict was spending the night, a crowd of several thousand urged him to come to the window.

"We are waiting, Poland is waiting," they chanted, followed by, "Cardinals, let the pope go!"

They erupted in cheers as a smiling Benedict appeared, made the sign of the cross over them, and put on his glasses to read his remarks, starting in Polish, then in Italian.

"I know that on the second day of every month, at the hour of my beloved predecessor's death, you come together to commemorate him and to pray for his elevation to the honor of the altars," Benedict said.

"This prayer supports those working on his cause, and enriches your hearts with every grace."

The pontiff spoke from the front window of the Krakow archbishop's residence, where John Paul made a custom of speaking to young people during his return visits as pontiff.

"We're so happy and so grateful that he came to the window, no matter long it lasted," said Piotr Kubasiak, 17, from Bielicka, a town just south of Krakow. "Every time he mentions John Paul it means so much for us."

"And it's a great sign that he mentioned the beatification and we are praying for John Paul to reach sainthood as quickly as possible."

It was an emotional end to the second day of his four-day visit.

Immediately after John Paul's death on April 2, 2005, faithful started clamoring for quick sainthood for him.

Benedict announced last year that he had waived the traditional five-year waiting period for the beatification process to begin.

Church officials are investigating the case of a French nun who recovered from Parkinson's disease as a possible miracle, which is required for beatification, the last formal step before a person is considered for sainthood. A second miracle is needed for someone to be declared a saint.

Benedict earlier visited Czestochowa, following in John Paul's footsteps to the country's holiest shrine and urging Poles to cling to their faith.

On the second day of his tour of Poland, the German pope spoke frequently of John Paul, paying tribute to his efforts to bring down communism across Eastern Europe. But he also looked ahead, encouraging Poland to remain a strong Catholic voice on an increasingly secular continent.

"How can we not thank God for all that was accomplished in your native land and in the whole world during the pontificate of John Paul II," Benedict told an estimated 270,000 people who stood in a pouring rain during a morning Mass in a Warsaw square. It was there, during his historic 1979 visit, that John Paul inspired the Solidarity movement against communist rule.

In his homily, Benedict challenged moral relativism, or the view that there are no absolute values, and defended the church's unchanging traditional beliefs.

"Stand firm in your faith, hand it down to your children," Benedict said.

Authorities said some 250,000 people turned out at the Czestochowa shrine, home of the famous Black Madonna icon. John Paul, convinced the Madonna saved his life when he was shot by a Turkish gunman in St. Peter's Square in 1981, donated to the sanctuary the bloody sash he wore that day.

Addressing priests, nuns, seminarians and the faithful at the shrine, Benedict said "we must give great attention to the development of our faith, so that it truly pervades all our attitudes, thoughts, actions and intentions."

Shortly before the pope arrived by helicopter from Warsaw, a priest taught the crowd how to welcome the pope in German, emphasizing the words "Der Heilige Vater" — "The Holy Father." Benedict himself has refrained from speaking his native language, apparently because of sensibilities of elderly Poles who recall the brutal German occupation during World War II.

"I am very happy to sing for the pope," said 12-year-old Daniel Bubel, one of the red-shirted choirboys practicing for his arrival. "I would very much like to see him."

At the Warsaw Mass, Benedict warned the faithful against those "seeking to falsify the Word of Christ and to remove from the Gospel those truths which in their view are too uncomfortable for modern man."

"They try to give the impression that everything is relative: even the truths of faith would depend on the historical situation and human evaluation," he said, in remarks that echoed his homily at John Paul's funeral last year. "Yet the church cannot silence the spirit of truth."

The choice of site — called Victory Square in 1979 and today Pilsudski Square — recalled John Paul's challenge to "renew the face of the Earth, of this land" during his triumphant first trip to his native land after being elected pope.

That visit challenged the atheist authorities and is credited by Solidarity founder Lech Walesa with inspiring trade union resistance to Soviet-backed communist rule, which collapsed in 1989-90.

Spectators stood resolutely Friday in ponchos and under umbrellas, filling vast Pilsudski Square before an 82-foot metal cross.

Aneta Owczarek, 18, dripping wet without a raincoat, did not consider going indoors.

"No way," she said. "This is one of the most important events that could ever happen in Poland and we don't know if we'll ever see the pope here again."

Warsaw authorities said doctors treated about 100 people during the Mass, and 19 people were taken to hospital with cold or circulation difficulties, but there were no serious injuries.

The numbers were smaller than in 1979, when some 300,000 people filled the square, and 750,000 were in the surrounding streets. Police spokesman Pawel Biedziak provided the estimate of Friday's crowd, with a packed square but virtually abandoned sidestreets.

White and yellow
Vatican flags decorated lampposts, and Benedict's picture stood in apartment windows; one window on Mazowiecka Street had pictures of both Benedict and John Paul.

"Today, the feeling is more spontaneous — in 1979, we still were under a different system, we were under a regime and people came because they wanted this meeting with the pope to bring fruit, and it did," said Barbara Kamela, 60, a retired bookkeeper who attended the 1979 Mass.

"John Paul II was dearer to us, because he was our brother," she said. "This pope is visibly trying to be close to us, we have a strong impression from him and I came to this Mass to be near him."

Benedict's four-day trip will include a stop at the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp, a visit heavy with significance for Catholic-Jewish relations, a favorite cause of both Benedict and John Paul.

I believe that Pope John Paul II was one of the greatest popes the church has ever had and should be made a saint. He did many things to encourage peace throughout the world as well as encourage a peaceful end to communism through the solidarity movement in Poland. Whether or not the church makes him a saint he is still a fantastic human being and will be seen favorably by God.[/quote]

[psholtz]

Do you believe in living in a New World Order run by the United Nations, the way that Pope John Paul II did?

Quote: This year, John Paul directed his thoughts to continuing conflicts around the globe. But he stressed that to bring about peace, there needs to be a new respect for international law and the creation of a "new international order" based on the goals of the United Nations.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/

[Snarf]

He was a perfectly acceptable Pope but we have plenty of saints these days. Had he done more to keep priests out of little boy cartoon underpants, he might be worthy of a look. As it is, both he and the church have a great deal of work to do before anything like the adjective 'saintly' can again be applied.

While he was certainly better than the pope who had his predecessor dug up, tried, and burned at the stake, the title Vicar of Christ is perfectly acceptable and accurate for him, even with all the implied scandals of our unfortunate days…

[mojo]

psholtz wrote: Do you believe in living in a New World Order run by the United Nations, the way that Pope John Paul II did?

Quote: This year, John Paul directed his thoughts to continuing conflicts around the globe. But he stressed that to bring about peace, there needs to be a new respect for international law and the creation of a "new international order" based on the goals of the United Nations.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/


Everytime someone says new world order it doesn't mean the boogieman is out to get you.

[psholtz]

politicalmojo wrote: psholtz wrote: Do you believe in living in a New World Order run by the United Nations, the way that Pope John Paul II did?

Quote: This year, John Paul directed his thoughts to continuing conflicts around the globe. But he stressed that to bring about peace, there needs to be a new respect for international law and the creation of a "new international order" based on the goals of the United Nations.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/


Everytime someone says new world order it doesn't mean the boogieman is out to get you.
That's not what I asked you.

What I asked you was whether you support the United Nations, and whether you support living under an international hegemony ruled by the United Nations Security Council, just like Pope JPII advocated and just like Pope JPII worked towards achieving?

[mojo]

psholtz wrote: politicalmojo wrote: psholtz wrote: Do you believe in living in a New World Order run by the United Nations, the way that Pope John Paul II did?

Quote: This year, John Paul directed his thoughts to continuing conflicts around the globe. But he stressed that to bring about peace, there needs to be a new respect for international law and the creation of a "new international order" based on the goals of the United Nations.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/


Everytime someone says new world order it doesn't mean the boogieman is out to get you.
That's not what I asked you.

What I asked you was whether you support the United Nations, and whether you support living under an international hegemony ruled by the United Nations Security Council, just like Pope JPII advocated and just like Pope JPII worked towards achieving?

No I dont want the world run by the United Nations. But the context of the Pope's speech was not what you are suggesting. He was suggesting that the United Nations should be used as medium for nations to cooperate towards international peace. Which if you think about it that is the most likely place for international diplomacy to take place.

[mattwa33193]

John Paul II is a little weak in the miracle department for sainthood to be anything but a political move by the Vatican, trying to cover the stain of all those little kids who were raped by their representatives.

Thinking that JPII or anyone else who calls for strengthening the United Nations in the name of peace isn't talking about a world government is naieve. The only way to ensure peace between nations, their stated goal, is to do away with nations.

[mcmlv]

Those egocentric, self-serving crooks [The UN] could not run an outhouse. I hardly thing anyone needs to worry about it. The idea behind respected international law is nothing new and clearly a necessity in an ever "smaller" world, but I digress. If anything can be said about John Paul II, is that he loved humanity and was sincere.

[feederband]

It doesn't matter if you think about it...

[garyd]

Whether the Roman Catholic Church chosses to beatify JPII isn't any of my business. It is their organiztion and they can do whatever they wish. On the whole however the RC church wuld have been a better or a least less threatening organization had it had more JPII's and less Leo's

[Jonah]

Why not?

I mean, even though the numerology of his title equals 666, he died, so why shouldn't this particular man be beatified? :-D

He was a pretty impressive pope, so I've read.

Not so sure about the current one or one in the future...

[sLiPpY]

I personally have no opinion on whether JPII should be sainted.

What I do know, is that JPII presided over the worst scandal in the Vatican Banks history. Allowed the person in charge of the banks, activities to hide out at St. Peter's to avoid prosecution by the Italian Government. There was also an outside institution and money exchanges involving the Italian Mafia.

The Pope did approve funding for organizations like Solidarity, and I do believe the Russians were possibly behind the assassination attempt.

In my thinking there's something highly hypocritical to JPII's administrative activities, in contrast to the teachings of whichever Christ story you prefer. ;)

But wtf...give em' Sainthood. It's not like it's anything real. :lol:

[Todd D.]

Quote: I mean, even though the numerology of his title equals 666, he died, so why shouldn't this particular man be beatified?
Um....no it doesn't, at least not the official one.

Should John Paul II be beatified? Meh, I guess. He was a tremendous leader that did more for the office that he held than anyone in the last century, in my opinion. He traveled extensively, was consistent in his insistence on peace, was brave enough to stand against Communism, and helped bridge the gap between Catholics and other denominations, not to mention other faiths.

[Otacon]

While he did push for peace and everything of that sort, I certainly don't care whether he's beatified or not. Then again, i'm not Catholic.

[Plodder]

he was the best pope in a long time, his only big faliure was appointing some liberal cardinals and bishops and allowing women to bbe acolytes.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

How to Become a Saint
Steps to Sainthood
In the 10th century, Pope John XV developed an official canonisation procedure,
which went through some revisions in the ensuing 1,000 years.
The process must begin five years after the candidate's death.

Local bishops investigate the life of the candidate and the findings are sent to the Vatican.

After approval by a panel of theologians and cardinals, the pope proclaims the candidate is "venerable," meaning
a role model of Roman Catholic virtues.

The next step is beatification if it is determined by the church that the candidate is responsible
for a miracle after his or her death.

Finally, for the designation of saint, the church must certify proof of a second posthumous miracle.

:roll:
Lastly, God has to approve in writing

[Hyde]

if he is, the last minuscule shred of respect i have for that catholic church,is gone. you know what, scratch that, it was lost a long time ago. try a few hundred years.

[JayDubya]

psholtz wrote: Do you believe in living in a New World Order run by the United Nations, the way that Pope John Paul II did?

Quote: This year, John Paul directed his thoughts to continuing conflicts around the globe. But he stressed that to bring about peace, there needs to be a new respect for international law and the creation of a "new international order" based on the goals of the United Nations.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/


Actually yeah, politically a Republican has nothing in common with John Paul II. If you were to apply the policies and opinions of the former pope to a political quiz versus that of say, Reagan, you'd find them to be entirely incompatible.

Edit: Yeah, here we go, found one.

[/img]

[Gilbert1908]

Snarf wrote: He was a perfectly acceptable Pope but we have plenty of saints these days. Had he done more to keep priests out of little boy cartoon underpants, he might be worthy of a look. As it is, both he and the church have a great deal of work to do before anything like the adjective 'saintly' can again be applied.

While he was certainly better than the pope who had his predecessor dug up, tried, and burned at the stake, the title Vicar of Christ is perfectly acceptable and accurate for him, even with all the implied scandals of our unfortunate days…

WE have plenty of saints do WE?

Have you converted?

[Darth Tiberius]

I've never heard of a Pope I really liked or respected.