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Gnostic
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 5382
Location: An asylum near you!
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Question for atheists |
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Gryff1nd0r wrote: the most disturbing fact is that if you believe that a God with free-will created the world, created humans, and then created a firey pit for bad humans to burn for eternity... then God is cruel and sadistic.
The christians try to explain that away by saying "god" gave humans a choice for which path to follow. And that no matter how evil a person may be in this life, if they just repent and accept jeesus then all will be good in the heavenly hood after they croak.
It's one big huge fairy tale, and it amazes me that adult people with otherwise intelligent minds still succumb to such prehistoric indoctrinations. |
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feederband
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 4158
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Question for atheists |
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Gnostic wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote: the most disturbing fact is that if you believe that a God with free-will created the world, created humans, and then created a firey pit for bad humans to burn for eternity... then God is cruel and sadistic.
The christians try to explain that away by saying "god" gave humans a choice for which path to follow. And that no matter how evil a person may be in this life, if they just repent and accept jeesus then all will be good in the heavenly hood after they croak.
It's one big huge fairy tale, and it amazes me that adult people with otherwise intelligent minds still succumb to such prehistoric indoctrinations.
Mind boggleing at the least.. |
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Æ
Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 5506
Location: Taxatraz
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Demonic Spoon wrote: ...
Science and religion ARE mutually exclusive.
Religion is driven on blind faith. Science relies on logical thinking. Science and religion are polar opposites.
Science and religion seek to answer the same question. If there is an answer to be found, it is a dual answer; not merely one in mind or in heart, but in both. |
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Gryff1nd0r
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Posts: 2430
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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aLienaTeD wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: ...
Science and religion ARE mutually exclusive.
Religion is driven on blind faith. Science relies on logical thinking. Science and religion are polar opposites.
Science and religion seek to answer the same question. If there is an answer to be found, it is a dual answer; not merely one in mind or in heart, but in both.
I don't think that science and religion attempt to answer the same questions (otherwise scientific discoveries would never outrage the religious).
Religion attempts to create an ultimate meaning and purpose, and put a human face on a mgical "Big Brother" to give us hope. Religion gives people hope. If a religion is contradicted, however rationally, that hope is lost.
Science attempts to use empirical evidence to discern demonstratable truths about reality. Science gives people knowledge. If a scientific hypothesis is contradicted by the scientific method, knowledge is gained rather than lost, and this is always a good thing.
However, I disagree that science and religion are mutually exclusive, and this may be because of my broad definition of "religion". I consider religion to be adherence to a creed and belief in an unverifiable truth. The religion of science/reason is actually based on an unverifiable truth: reason alone can discover truths about reality. The only way to verify the truth of that statement is by using reason itself, therefore it is circular and unverifiable. Science, reason, atheism, whatever you want to call it... it is a religion of sorts, and ultimatly, all religions have the goal of knowing the TRUTH (although theistic religions are different because they tend to count on the truth affirming human purpose and meaning, while atheistic religions can accept that the truth affirms human existence to be purposless, meaningless, and directionless). |
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feederband
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 4158
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Gryff1nd0r wrote: while atheistic religions can accept that the truth affirms human existence to be purposless, meaningless, and directionless). Not all Atheist share that view... |
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Random Evil Guy
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 1805
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Gryff1nd0r wrote: Science, reason, atheism, whatever you want to call it... it is a religion of sorts, and ultimatly, all religions have the goal of knowing the TRUTH (although theistic religions are different because they tend to count on the truth affirming human purpose and meaning, while atheistic religions can accept that the truth affirms human existence to be purposless, meaningless, and directionless).
eh, atheism is not a religion. that would be like saying 'not playing golf' is a hobby... |
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Enoch
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 9391
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote:
No, they are not mutually exclusive. Not everything found in science is equally addressed in religion. I've never known a religion to expound on atoms, astrophysics, or quantum mechanics.
Likewise, not everything found in religion is equally addressed in science. I've never known science to address the idea of morality or spirituality.
In addition, religion is not just "blind faith." There is a logical thought behind many people's reasons to believe in a religious ideal. Just because you don't understand their thinking, or disagree with their conclusions, doesn't mean it is all blind.
1) That's because morality is subjective. Morality is what a person believes, there is no ultimate, end-all "morality" that applies to everyone. Spirituality is another word for bulls**t. Once again, it's belief in something without any evidence at all.
2) Logical thought? Please explain what "logical thought" brought you to the conclusion that there is an invisible man in the sky?
True, morality is subjective. But, that is one of the things that religion deals with that science doesn't.
Now, if you want to really know my reasons for believing in a religion, you may want to try asking in a less condescending manner. |
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Enoch
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 9391
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Question for atheists |
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Sataere wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: Why is it that individually you do not believe in God? What is the strongest argument for tossing the idea of (a) God out the window that you can throw at me?
You can't prove or show evidence that he does exist, so there is no reason for anyone to believe that he does. For the believer, no proof is needed. For the skeptic, no proof is available. |
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Shady
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 7413
Location: VA
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Question for atheists |
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UrielsFyre wrote: Sataere wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: Why is it that individually you do not believe in God? What is the strongest argument for tossing the idea of (a) God out the window that you can throw at me?
You can't prove or show evidence that he does exist, so there is no reason for anyone to believe that he does. For the believer, no proof is needed. For the skeptic, no proof is available.
It's really kind of irrelevant. |
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Enoch
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 9391
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Question for atheists |
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Benny wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Sataere wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: Why is it that individually you do not believe in God? What is the strongest argument for tossing the idea of (a) God out the window that you can throw at me?
You can't prove or show evidence that he does exist, so there is no reason for anyone to believe that he does. For the believer, no proof is needed. For the skeptic, no proof is available.
It's really kind of irrelevant.
Proof is irrelevant? Yes, it is. |
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Shady
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 7413
Location: VA
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Question for atheists |
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UrielsFyre wrote: Benny wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Sataere wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: Why is it that individually you do not believe in God? What is the strongest argument for tossing the idea of (a) God out the window that you can throw at me?
You can't prove or show evidence that he does exist, so there is no reason for anyone to believe that he does. For the believer, no proof is needed. For the skeptic, no proof is available.
It's really kind of irrelevant.
Proof is irrelevant? Yes, it is.
Yeah, it doesn't really matter if you believe in God or not. If you choose to believe, great, if you choose to disbelieve, great. I don't think anyone should bother wasting time trying to prove or disprove God... it's just pointless. |
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dtwizzy2k5
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 467
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Well for all you atheists out there, i have a question for you since you dont believe in God: How did this universe come about? Where did everyone, including people and this very earth, come from?
It should be interesting to hear the atheists answer this one... |
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Enoch
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 9391
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: |
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dtwizzy2k5 wrote: Well for all you atheists out there, i have a question for you since you dont believe in God: How did this universe come about? Where did everyone, including people and this very earth, come from?
It should be interesting to hear the atheists answer this one... Apparently you've never talked to an atheist before or studied scientific theory conerning the origins of existence. |
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Refrozen Seabass
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 2900
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Question for atheists |
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aLienaTeD wrote: Why is it that individually you do not believe in God? What is the strongest argument for tossing the idea of (a) God out the window that you can throw at me?
God is not in evidence, nor does anything in nature imply that a God is necessary. I'm quite comfortable knowing there are many, many natural phenomenon I don't understand. I don't see a need to introduce a deity in order to force an explanation that suits me personally, but doesn't make any real sense. |
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Refrozen Seabass
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 2900
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Question for atheists |
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LetsGetReal wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: Why is it that individually you do not believe in God? What is the strongest argument for tossing the idea of (a) God out the window that you can throw at me?
no evidence to support its existance. 2 billion followers is no evidence?
No. Two billion followers is no evidence. |
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Refrozen Seabass
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 2900
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Random Evil Guy wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote: Science, reason, atheism, whatever you want to call it... it is a religion of sorts, and ultimatly, all religions have the goal of knowing the TRUTH (although theistic religions are different because they tend to count on the truth affirming human purpose and meaning, while atheistic religions can accept that the truth affirms human existence to be purposless, meaningless, and directionless).
eh, atheism is not a religion. that would be like saying 'not playing golf' is a hobby...
Hah! Well put. I've been told that atheism is religion before. Your rebuttal is as succinct as any I've seen. |
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Refrozen Seabass
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 2900
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Demonic Spoon wrote: ...
Science and religion ARE mutually exclusive.
Religion is driven on blind faith. Science relies on logical thinking. Science and religion are polar opposites.
Not true. Many scientists believe in God, and that God created the Universe. They are investigating God's creation. The belief that God created nature is not a belief I share, but it's not an uncommon one. And since it doesn't actually get in the way of science, it's a harmless belief. |
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Sataere
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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aLienaTeD wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: ...
Science and religion ARE mutually exclusive.
Religion is driven on blind faith. Science relies on logical thinking. Science and religion are polar opposites.
Science and religion seek to answer the same question. If there is an answer to be found, it is a dual answer; not merely one in mind or in heart, but in both.
True, they seek to answer the same question, but they go about it in different ways, which often leads them to different, conflicting conclusions. If one of them attempts answers the question, and the other doesn't agree, it causes conflict between the two. |
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Refrozen Seabass
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 2900
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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dtwizzy2k5 wrote: Well for all you atheists out there, i have a question for you since you dont believe in God: How did this universe come about? Where did everyone, including people and this very earth, come from?
It should be interesting to hear the atheists answer this one...
If I say "I don't know", what does that prove? I don't know how plumbing works or how they get the caramel inside the Caramilk bar either. So?
As for where the earth came from, how far back would you like to go? Ultimately, a cloud of interstellar dust. Something perturbed it, it started to rotate, mass started to gather in the middle as it tends to do. Fast forward lots of years, and you get a star and in our case planets out of the deal.
As for people . . . don't they teach this stuff in school? Or is the abstinence-only sex education program in full swing now? |
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Sataere
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Demonic Spoon wrote: ...
Science and religion ARE mutually exclusive.
Religion is driven on blind faith. Science relies on logical thinking. Science and religion are polar opposites.
I've thought about it for a little while, and I have finally come to my personal conclusion:
The concept of a god, when viewed as a fact, is mutually exclusive to science. This is because in science, to to prove something, you need evidence, which is lacking in the absolute and unsubstantiated belief of a god. But if god is viewed as an abstract hypothesis, then certain religions and science can coexist. However, many religions require the adherent to have true faith in the concept of a god, so only religions that do not require this can coexist with the concept of a god. In short, only blind religious faith, not religion, is mutually exclusive to science. |
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