Political Crossfire Forums

[Hyde]

Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

[Saf]

Exaggerated/created by his followers, especially John and Paul.

[toddytodd]

Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

[Hyde]

toddytodd wrote:
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.
i dont think it is as much of a miracle as a church that in the beginning would imprison or kill anyone that they thought where heretics or blasphemous. They manged getting people to believe there way of thinking by fright and that belief being passed down over the years from parent to child. And alot of children have the same religious beliefs as their parents. That is kind of sad though seeing how Jesus had a great message but it was sent wrong by church (catholics to be precise).

[sparsely]

"I couldn't care less is what you mean, I think." ;)

[eynon]

Hyde wrote: toddytodd wrote:
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.
i dont think it is as much of a miracle as a church that in the beginning would imprison or kill anyone that they thought where heretics or blasphemous. They manged getting people to believe there way of thinking by fright and that belief being passed down over the years from parent to child. And alot of children have the same religious beliefs as their parents. That is kind of sad though seeing how Jesus had a great message but it was sent wrong by church (catholics to be precise).

the Romans persecuted the Church for nearly 300 years, when the emperor finally legalized Christianity it had a huge following(between 20-30% of the population of the empire). That growth wasn't achieved through fear it was achieved through love.

It was only far later, when the Church became emeshed in European politics that things got bloody........it took the Chruch centuries to corrupt the teachings of Christ and even then not every part of the Church corrupted Jesus's message.

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS DEATH and RESURRECTION.

[Hyde]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS and RESURRECTION.

You are contradicting yourself. First you said that his significance was not what he taught but his life. But he spent his life teaching. to say his whole life was pointless and that his only reason for his life was to die and be resurrected is a load of crap. People spend so much time focusing on his dea.th and resurrection they dont focus on the important thing; Jesus's teachings.

[Hyde]

sparsely wrote: "I couldn't care less is what you mean, I think." ;)

My bad :oops!:

[garyd]

The consensus of the eye witnesses and there were hundreds not just jesus and Paul was that He did miraculous things. It is up to you whether you wish to accept the testimony of these various eye witnesses and those who recounted those deeds.

[cap'n queasy]

Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

Ask yourself this.

Where do miracles come from? What is the only thing that could cause something like this to happen?

[connermt]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS DEATH and RESURRECTION.

Jesus was a teacher, rather or not he was God incarnate. Even the deciples called him 'teacher', if you take the bible word for word. If you believe Jesus was God, then yes he was above buddah or confusius or any other person, no doubt. But if you don't believe that, or don't understand that concept (god/man), then you can say at least he was a great teacher & role model. There was significance in his teachings. W/o his teachings, his life/death wouldn't have made sense to anyone. A guy shows up, lives to his early 30's, gets crucified, comes back to life. With no teachings during this life time, his existance would have seemed pointless.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS DEATH and RESURRECTION.

I do not seek to make Jesus anything more or less than he was. I believe he was part god & part man, although I don't understand it totally. What I do understand fully is he was a great teacher, he was kind, loving, patient, forgiving, etc. All these things are not, in my opinion, something people have naturally. They are learned, therefore, they need to be taught.
In regards to his life and actions, of course they were important to people who believe. Being a great teacher does not, in my opinion, detract from what his life meant to believers in any way.

[Gilbert1908]

Hyde wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS and RESURRECTION.

You are contradicting yourself. First you said that his significance was not what he taught but his life. But he spent his life teaching. to say his whole life was pointless and that his only reason for his life was to die and be resurrected is a load of crap. People spend so much time focusing on his dea.th and resurrection they dont focus on the important thing; Jesus's teachings.

My point is that if you view Jesus as ONLY a teacher then you need not study his teachings since you will have lost their true meaning.

Also if you did not believe Jesus was God why would you then respect the teaching of a madman?

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS DEATH and RESURRECTION.

I do not seek to make Jesus anything more or less than he was. I believe he was part god & part man, although I don't understand it totally. What I do understand fully is he was a great teacher, he was kind, loving, patient, forgiving, etc. All these things are not, in my opinion, something people have naturally. They are learned, therefore, they need to be taught.
In regards to his life and actions, of course they were important to people who believe. Being a great teacher does not, in my opinion, detract from what his life meant to believers in any way.

Fair enough, my point was simply to point out that IF one views Jesus Christ ONLY as a teacher then they need to resolve how a great teacher can think and claim Himself to be God and not be considered insane. They would need to explain how they would consider a crazy man a great teacher.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

Miracles and Miracle workers were incredibly common the 1st centuary world, hellenistic tradition is chock a block of mircales from magi and gods interveneing in this and that.

Jewish tradition also contains examples of what is know as hasidim, jewish mircale working holy men from galilee (certain scholars such as Geza Vermes put jesus as one of these) examples off the top of my head would he Honi the circle drawer or Hanina Ben Dosa (both of whom have classic christian eqsue mircales supposidly in their records from making it rain (honi referd to himself as the son of god) or getting bitten by snakes and curing fever).

Simply you din't have a holy man in that day and age unless he did do mircales, there also key components of most of the gospels (i'd say mathew being the least keen on them) so that means by the time said gospels were written 70-110 ad, the tradition of jesus performing mircales was firmly established.

Now these plenty of theories about the E. church whacking them in, in order to convert gentlies or the whatever reason you can think of.

But you have to rember that miracles in the 1st centuary were not the same as they are today.

Today a mircale is either, a inexplicable even but essentially scientific or god interveneing to bypass the laws of natures.

1st centuary, there were no laws of nature, it was simply god intervening, so most probally (in my opinion) most of the miracles probally happened but were a matter of phcyosomatic behavoir on the part of the cure or just exageration in relation to the nature and ressurection miracles.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS DEATH and RESURRECTION.

I do not seek to make Jesus anything more or less than he was. I believe he was part god & part man, although I don't understand it totally. What I do understand fully is he was a great teacher, he was kind, loving, patient, forgiving, etc. All these things are not, in my opinion, something people have naturally. They are learned, therefore, they need to be taught.
In regards to his life and actions, of course they were important to people who believe. Being a great teacher does not, in my opinion, detract from what his life meant to believers in any way.

Fair enough, my point was simply to point out that IF one views Jesus Christ ONLY as a teacher then they need to resolve how a great teacher can think and claim Himself to be God and not be considered insane. They would need to explain how they would consider a crazy man a great teacher.

Jesus never says hes the son of god.

[Hyde]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Hyde wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS and RESURRECTION.

You are contradicting yourself. First you said that his significance was not what he taught but his life. But he spent his life teaching. to say his whole life was pointless and that his only reason for his life was to die and be resurrected is a load of crap. People spend so much time focusing on his dea.th and resurrection they dont focus on the important thing; Jesus's teachings.

My point is that if you view Jesus as ONLY a teacher then you need not study his teachings since you will have lost their true meaning.

Also if you did not believe Jesus was God why would you then respect the teaching of a madman?


Just becuase i do not believe Jesus as God doesnt mean i cant learn from his teachings. And just becuase i dont believe that Jesus is God, you say that i lose their true meaning. i think chrisitans lose his teachings true meaning by caring more about his and resurection and beliveing that he is God that they dont focus on this greatest aspect, his lessons. Would Jesus really have wanted a religion where all the glory does not go to god but to him? I dont think so.

[Gilbert1908]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS DEATH and RESURRECTION.

I do not seek to make Jesus anything more or less than he was. I believe he was part god & part man, although I don't understand it totally. What I do understand fully is he was a great teacher, he was kind, loving, patient, forgiving, etc. All these things are not, in my opinion, something people have naturally. They are learned, therefore, they need to be taught.
In regards to his life and actions, of course they were important to people who believe. Being a great teacher does not, in my opinion, detract from what his life meant to believers in any way.

Fair enough, my point was simply to point out that IF one views Jesus Christ ONLY as a teacher then they need to resolve how a great teacher can think and claim Himself to be God and not be considered insane. They would need to explain how they would consider a crazy man a great teacher.

Jesus never says hes the son of god.

Why then was he crucified?

[thefranzkafkafront]

Gilbert1908 wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: Was Jesus a miracle worker or have events been exaggerated or even made up over the years.

I think it depends on what you consider a miracle. Walking on water? A miracle if it did indeed happen (rather it was supernatural or not). People do tend to exaggerate stories, even today. Sometimes on purpose, other times just because they were excited. I think it would be ignorant for us to think this exaggeration didn't happen to some extent, especially with the lack of scientific knowledge/understanding that existed back then.
Personally, I am more concerned about what he taught. Getting people to think about things the way he did as told in the bible is, in of itself, a miracle.

You seek to make Jesus Christ the equivalent of Buddah or Confusius He was not. He was not a teacher He was God Incarnate and He made that clear time after time.

His significance was NOT what he taught his significance wasHis LIFE, HIS DEATH and RESURRECTION.

I do not seek to make Jesus anything more or less than he was. I believe he was part god & part man, although I don't understand it totally. What I do understand fully is he was a great teacher, he was kind, loving, patient, forgiving, etc. All these things are not, in my opinion, something people have naturally. They are learned, therefore, they need to be taught.
In regards to his life and actions, of course they were important to people who believe. Being a great teacher does not, in my opinion, detract from what his life meant to believers in any way.

Fair enough, my point was simply to point out that IF one views Jesus Christ ONLY as a teacher then they need to resolve how a great teacher can think and claim Himself to be God and not be considered insane. They would need to explain how they would consider a crazy man a great teacher.

Jesus never says hes the son of god.

Why then was he crucified?

Pissing the Romans off, by pissing the Sanhedrin off by causing a ruckus in the temple around festival time.

If it was just a simple crime of blashpemy the romans would have gotten involved and he would have been stoned outside jerusalem at the end of passover.

The Romans only crusified people when you caused a problem in terms of stability.

Seriously though, don't get me wrong demons identify him as a son of god other people do also but the charater of Jesus never comes out and states 'I'm the son of god'.

Whether that's the truth of the matter of a literary device used by the gospel writers/E. church tradition comes down to faith.