Political Crossfire Forums

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: You didn't like my answer? I don't think that's your right to place value on my answer considering it's about my life and my experiences.
You were saying when your life began, and yes you are wrong about it. Dont try to proclaim yourself as an authority of when your life began because its your life. Were talking about the species here not yourself, to which you belong. We all begin at the same time too, conception.

Quote: An embryo is a potential human, just as a seed is a potential flower.
An embryo is a single celled organism that is currently developing into a fetus. This organism is human. It is not potentially human. That is a scientific fact.

Quote: Does an embryo feel pain? Is an embryo flawed with emotion and desires? irrelevent, feeling pain is not a prerequisite of being human. It is an individual human life that self dictates its progression into an adult.

Quote: Does self-awareness have no value? Self awareness is the thing that gives human life value in most peoples eyes and in mine. That does not mean A human life holds no value before it develops the ability. It is the same individual before and after sentience that the sentience itself makes valueable.

Quote: We are what we are on the inside, not the outside. You point is not ignored, only mute. Your claims are valid, yet superficial. I think that claim is superficial. We are what we are. Upon conception we are a human individual, the same person we are at 90. Our identity remains intact throughout pregnancy.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

AllAmericanMan wrote: You were saying when your life began, and yes you are wrong about it. Dont try to proclaim yourself as an authority of when your life began because its your life. Were talking about the species here not yourself, to which you belong. We all begin at the same time too, conception.

How can you say that I don't have authority over my own life? That's extremely arrogant of you to believe you know someone else's life better than they do.

AllAmericanMan wrote: An embryo is a single celled organism that is currently developing into a fetus. This organism is human. It is not potentially human. That is a scientific fact.

Notice "single celled organism", not human. Also notice the term "developing". These are your own words.

I am not saying that an embryo is not a part of the human species, I am saying that it is not yet a human being.

AllAmericanMan wrote: irrelevent, feeling pain is not a prerequisite of being human. It is an individual human life that self dictates its progression into an adult.

You say that the individual self-dictates its own life, but you also say that I am wrong about my own life? Again, you contradict yourself.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Self awareness is the thing that gives human life value in most peoples eyes and in mine. That does not mean A human life holds no value before it develops the ability. It is the same individual before and after sentience that the sentience itself makes valueable.

I am not arguing that a human holds not value without self-awareness, I am arguing that it is not human until it has self-awareness. The potential becoming the actual.

AllAmericanMan wrote: I think that claim is superficial. We are what we are. Upon conception we are a human individual, the same person we are at 90. Our identity remains intact throughout pregnancy.

Claiming to be what we are on the inside is superficial? I thought it was the other way around... that superficial was concerned with only what is seen on the outside, with no regard for the true essence of the person...

Upon conception we are a potential life. At 90 we are a person filled with experiences, emotions, thoughts, ideas, theories, and flaws. As an embryo, we are awaiting to be born.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: How can you say that I don't have authority over my own life? That's extremely arrogant of you to believe you know someone else's life better than they do.
In the biological reproduction of your species, you are not necessarily an authority. I didnt claim I know your life I claimed I know how it began. Its called science.

Quote: am not saying that an embryo is not a part of the human species, I am saying that it is not yet a human being.
Only human beings are members of the human species.

Quote: You say that the individual self-dictates its own life, but you also say that I am wrong about my own life? Again, you contradict yourself.
Again you misinterpret the science of your beginnings for whos in your first grade yearbook.

Quote: am not arguing that a human holds not value without self-awareness, I am arguing that it is not human until it has self-awareness. The potential becoming the actual. You just controdicted yourself. A human isnt human until it grows to the point it gains awareness? The potential you are refering to is the potential of awareness, not humanity. It is a human individual organism, as are you and I.

Quote: Claiming to be what we are on the inside is superficial? I thought it was the other way around... that superficial was concerned with only what is seen on the outside, with no regard for the true essence of the person...
Seeing as I am the one who is arguing that people are people in the most basic sense since conception, I believe your statement to be superficial yes. You are implying that Im emphasizing whats on the outside, which is the exact opposite of what is happening here.

Quote: Upon conception we are a potential life Wrong, scientifically proven to be false.

An embryo is a human organism and thus by definition, human. Not potential, just under developed.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

AllAmericanMan wrote: In the biological reproduction of your species, you are not necessarily an authority. I didnt claim I know your life I claimed I know how it began. Its called science.

Who better to know when a life begins than the individual in question? No scientist examined me within my mother's womb (as far as I know, since I had neither thought, nor emotion), so how would another know when my life began? I am not talking in terms of my species, I am talking in terms of my individual life. A life that I hold complete authority over, whether that authority be scientific, political, socially, or personally, I hold the final authority over my own life.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Only human beings are members of the human species.

Then under your logic, an embryo is not a member of the human species.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Again you misinterpret the science of your beginnings for whos in your first grade yearbook.

When did my first grade yearbook come into question?

AllAmericanMan wrote: You just controdicted yourself. A human isnt human until it grows to the point it gains awareness? The potential you are refering to is the potential of awareness, not humanity. It is a human individual organism, as are you and I.

I do not believe that I contradicted myself, as I did not refer to an embryo as a human. I stated that it is not human without awareness, because without awareness it is not life. A human being must hold awareness, for without that, you would not even be able to think of your claims, let alone argue them.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Seeing as I am the one who is arguing that people are people in the most basic sense since conception, I believe your statement to be superficial yes. You are implying that Im emphasizing whats on the outside, which is the exact opposite of what is happening here.

What is biology is not emphasizing what we look like, and what we are made of?

AllAmericanMan wrote: Wrong, scientifically proven to be false.

So prove it false.

AllAmericanMan wrote: An embryo is a human organism and thus by definition, human. Not potential, just under developed.

Actually, you just stated that only human beings are members of the human species, not human organisms. You have just proved yourself wrong with your own logic.

Also, what is the difference between potential, and being "under developed"?

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: Who better to know when a life begins than the individual in question Laughable. No one remembers being a baby let alone being conceived.

Quote: so how would another know when my life began? Because the process has been studied and we all come about the same way. Do you really need me to explain all this to you? How old are you that you cant come to these basic conclusions on your own?

Quote: I am talking in terms of my individual life No youre talking in terms of biology, a science that is studied in great detail.

Quote: Then under your logic, an embryo is not a member of the human species Negative. An embryo is a human being as I clearly demonstrate throughout this thread.

Quote: What is biology is not emphasizing what we look like, and what we are made of? Biology is the study of life.

Quote: Actually, you just stated that only human beings are members of the human species, not human organisms. You have just proved yourself wrong with your own logic.

you do realize that you are a living human organism right? Organism does not imply something is outside of a species. Its a general scientific term that describes a living being.

Quote: Also, what is the difference between potential, and being "under developed Potential implies something is not yet so, a developing life is so, just under developed.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: That chart only shows the biological development of an embryo, we are debating the intellectual capacity, self-awareness, and sentience of an embryo... No were not. Were debating that an embryo is a person. "Person," a legal term that has been proven by court rulings to not include the unborn. Sure looks like you are spewing nonsense again.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

AllAmericanMan wrote: Were talking about the species here not yourself, to which you belong. We all begin at the same time too, conception. really? A second twin begins at conception as well?

Quote: An embryo is a single celled organism that is currently developing into a fetus. This organism is human. It is not potentially human. That is a scientific fact. really? then provide the scientific reference. or were you AGAIN LYING?

Quote: Quote: We are what we are on the inside, not the outside. You point is not ignored, only mute. Your claims are valid, yet superficial. I think that claim is superficial. We are what we are. Upon conception we are a human individual, the same person we are at 90. Our identity remains intact throughout pregnancy. So twins' identity is that of a single biological entity? What utter nonsense you are spewing.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: How can you say that I don't have authority over my own life? That's extremely arrogant of you to believe you know someone else's life better than they do.
In the biological reproduction of your species, you are not necessarily an authority. Neither are you, as showed.

Quote: I didnt claim I know your life I claimed I know how it began. Its called science. Actually, no it isn't, you asre again lying about science. You seem to do that a lot. Why are you lying so much about science? Do you even know what science is? Do you even know what scientific evidence is? Or are you just lying every time you make claims about something being scientific?

Quote: Again you misinterpret the science of your beginnings for whos in your first grade yearbook. And what science is that? Care to present the actual scientific reference for your lies and misrepresentations?

Quote: Quote: Upon conception we are a potential life Wrong, scientifically proven to be false. Provide the scientific evidence for your lies.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: so how would another know when my life began? Because the process has been studied and we all come about the same way. Even twins or triplets? Or are you again lying about science?

[quote]Do you really need me to explain all this to you? How old are you that you cant come to these basic conclusions on your own?{/quote]Rather you need to STOP LYING about science.

Quote: Quote: I am talking in terms of my individual life No youre talking in terms of biology, a science that is studied in great detail. So provide the scientific evidence for your lies.

Quote: Quote: Then under your logic, an embryo is not a member of the human species Negative. An embryo is a human being as I clearly demonstrate throughout this thread. Rather, you claimed it. You have failed to prove your claim.

Quote: Quote: What is biology is not emphasizing what we look like, and what we are made of? Biology is the study of life. And what do you know of biology?

Quote: Organism does not imply something is outside of a species. Its a general scientific term that describes a living being. Really? Prove it.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

AllAmericanMan wrote: Laughable. No one remembers being a baby let alone being conceived.

My point exactly! If I cannot remember my own conception, then how can I be certain of my own life? Because someone else told me I was alive? You can think whatever you want about me, but it is hard to tell me whether or not I am alive. Am I alive now? Yes, my proof is though my own thought. Was I alive as an embryo? No, because I cannot remember that stage of my existence (not life), and I had not thought.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Because the process has been studied and we all come about the same way. Do you really need me to explain all this to you? How old are you that you cant come to these basic conclusions on your own?

Old enough to think for myself, instead of letting science determine things are personable to my own life. How old are you that you would choose the easy conclusion instead of devising your own ideals though your cognitive processes about your own existence?

AllAmericanMan wrote: No youre talking in terms of biology, a science that is studied in great detail.

Actually, you were the one debating biology, not me.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Negative. An embryo is a human being as I clearly demonstrate throughout this thread.

You have proved that an embryo looks like a human. Prove that it thinks like one.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Biology is the study of life.

Then biologically prove the existence of thought.

AllAmericanMan wrote: you do realize that you are a living human organism right? Organism does not imply something is outside of a species. Its a general scientific term that describes a living being.

An organism and a being are two distinct things. A being thinks, and organism does not.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Potential implies something is not yet so, a developing life is so, just under developed.

Yet though that development that has not yet happened, the potential becomes the actual.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Youre arguements are insane and heres why.
You said it was your life and you determined when your life began and that is an outrite falsehood. Biology has proven when life begins. To say its your life and you know when it begins is well retarded sorry. There are scientists who dedicate their life to learn and study the process. You argued you had more knowledge than them which I still cant believe you actually said.

Quote: My point exactly! If I cannot remember my own conception, then how can I be certain of my own life? Because someone else told me I was alive? You can think whatever you want about me, but it is hard to tell me whether or not I am alive. Am I alive now? Yes, my proof is though my own thought. Was I alive as an embryo? No, because I cannot remember that stage of my existence (not life), and I had not thought.
Insanity! Completely ignoring the definition of life and proclaiming if you cant remember something, it never happened! Laughable. Sorry for the rough language Im just calling reality as I see it.

Quote: Because someone else told me I was alive? My friend, not only can we determine when life begins, we can start it artificially!

Quote: A human life begins when a diploid complement of human DNA is initiated to begin human development. Therefore, a life can be initiated by the fusion of sperm and egg or by the introduction of a diploid nucleus into an enucleated egg (ie, “cloning”).

A human life is the experience of a human being until its death. It begins with a single cell that has a diploid complement of human DNA, programmed for human development.

http://www.cogforlife.org/clonedebate.htm

An associate professor of BIO ENGINEERING!

Nowhere is sentience mentioned. This is very important so pay attention. Sentience is a CHARACTERISTIC of the INDIVIDUAL that will DEVELOP with AGE/TIME. It is NOT the definition of a human being or member of the homo sapien species!

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

AllAmericanMan wrote: Insanity! Completely ignoring the definition of life and proclaiming if you cant remember something, it never happened! Laughable. Sorry for the rough language Im just calling reality as I see it.

Is it? How can we define our lives if not by memory and experience? Biology proves that we exist, the I determine whether or not I am alive.

AllAmericanMan wrote: My friend, not only can we determine when life begins, we can start it artificially!

We can create existence, but life is brought upon though the individual's perception. That is something that cannot be created, it is something that is forced upon it.

AllAmericanMan wrote: An associate professor of BIO ENGINEERING!

Nowhere is sentience mentioned. This is very important so pay attention. Sentience is a CHARACTERISTIC of the INDIVIDUAL that will DEVELOP with AGE/TIME. It is NOT the definition of a human being or member of the homo sapien species!

And what is life if not an individual? You continually say that sentience will develop with time, and I agree. Until that sentience is developed, it is not life. It can exist, as biology proves, but it cannot be life until that sentience is achieved.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: but it cannot be life until that sentience is achieved So is a blade of grass sentient? Is a tumor? They are both alive.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

AllAmericanMan wrote: Youre arguements are insane and heres why. Ah, you are back to talking to the mirror again.

Quote: Biology has proven when life begins. Provide the proof for your lies, then.

Quote: Quote: Because someone else told me I was alive? My friend, not only can we determine when life begins, we can start it artificially! Really? Out of not-living material, we can create life? Gosh, you sure lie a lot.

Quote: A human life begins when a diploid complement of human DNA is initiated to begin human development. Prove it. Show that there was no life before then. No? So you again are spewing falsehoods.

Quote: ...http://www.cogforlife.org/... Ah, back to the pro-life pro-lie site.

Quote: An associate professor of BIO ENGINEERING! So what? Science is about the evidence, not the person. Show the evidence or retract your lies about science.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

AllAmericanMan wrote: So is a blade of grass sentient? Is a tumor? They are both alive.

Does a blade of grass photosynthesize? Does it react to the sunlight?

There is a difference between plant and animal life, the most basic being that plants have no nervous system to produce thought, and no heart to create emotion. The issue of the seed and the embryo is till consistent, however, because neither are examples of actual life, but only the potential for that life.