Political Crossfire Forums

[rdnor]

Does anyone know how Hitler really rose to power ? Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did Killing all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

[Thrilla]

this is better suited to the historic events forum

moved

[NobleOne]

rdnor wrote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did Killing all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

If Hitler had not rose to power and so on, my parents would never have met and I wouldn't exist.
So I for one am glad he did.

[bob.appleyard]

Quote: Does anyone know how Hitler really rose to power ?

The major factors influencing Hitler being appointed as chancellor:

LONG TERM
- The apparent ineptitude of the Weimar politicians
- The punitive Versailles Treaty, which the main parties were shouldered with (as well as with the surrender -- the "stab in the back")
- Economic collapse, and the offer of a guiding purpose to poverty-stricken veterans (the SA)
- Clever propaganda by the Nazis

SHORT TERM
- The reaction of the major parties to the sudden rise of populatiry with the Nazis in elections (which was tapering off when Hitler was put in)
- Conspiratorial, "back room" politics, and the belief by the mainstream right-wing that Hitler could be controlled

The establishment of a one-party state with Hitler as Fuhrer rested mostly on the ruthless exploitation of a partly manufactured national crisis.

Quote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ?

The Germans definitely used chemical weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried their hands at biological ones, too. And there is evidence that they were having a go at nukes as well.

Quote: Did Killing all those Jews effect you ?

The mass killing of jewish people, communists, homosexuals, gypsies, homeless people, disabled people etc didn't affect me personally. The mechanical killing of millions is nonetheless abhorrent.

[Hyde]

NobleOne wrote: rdnor wrote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

If had not rose to power and so on, my parents would never have met and I wouldn't exist.
So I for one am glad he did.

so your saying that even though rose to power, killed milions, and started a world war, it is ok because you were born.
WTF!!!!!!!!

[Pebble]

bob.appleyard wrote: Quote: Does anyone know how Hitler really rose to power ?

The major factors influencing Hitler being appointed as chancellor:

LONG TERM
- The apparent ineptitude of the Weimar politicians
- The punitive Versailles Treaty, which the main parties were shouldered with (as well as with the surrender -- the "stab in the back")
- Economic collapse, and the offer of a guiding purpose to poverty-stricken veterans (the SA)
- Clever propaganda by the Nazis

SHORT TERM
- The reaction of the major parties to the sudden rise of populatiry with the Nazis in elections (which was tapering off when Hitler was put in)
- Conspiratorial, "back room" politics, and the belief by the mainstream right-wing that Hitler could be controlled

The establishment of a one-party state with Hitler as Fuhrer rested mostly on the ruthless exploitation of a partly manufactured national crisis.

Pretty good summary.

Add in hyperinflation as detail on the economic crisis, though later stabilised by Streissman it contributed to the rise of Bavarian nationalism. Add in class conflicts, the middle classes feared the rise of communism and saw the Nazis as the way to keep themeslves safe and the manner in which Hitler tended to promise things to both sides of an argument and you'd have most of it. Think i'm leaving some out still...there's definately more detail in there if you need this for a study, SA street violence, the Munich Putsch, Mein Kampf and the change in policy.

[WorldCitizenMovement]

Hyde wrote: NobleOne wrote: rdnor wrote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

If had not rose to power and so on, my parents would never have met and I wouldn't exist.
So I for one am glad he did.

so your saying that even though rose to power, killed milions, and started a world war, it is ok because you were born.
WTF!!!!!!!!

Well he didnt kill millions himself, his secret police did and Nazi officials did, there actually is no evidence that hitler began the mass killings, though lesser officials there is evidence, and Hitler didnt really start WW2 so to speak, it was Britian and France whom owning half the world or so who declared war on Germany brought the world to war really. If Britain or France were not imperialistic than really this would've been one more of the many thousands of European Wars. We cannot escape blame as well, our planes, soldiers, and bombs killed millions of innocent civilians as well. However, on the flip side, or the positive side, if World War 2 did not happen....

-Would the conception of a "global community exist"
-What about the massive technology that was brought about during those times
-Would the UN or the conception of "international justice" and "humanitarian rights" exist today as they do
-How much longer would the depression have gone on for if it were not for WW2 bringing the world out of it?
-Would the world be as intolerant as it is today to genocide, hate, war, and other such human phenomenon?
-Would such things as the world citizen movement have conceptualized which is quickly giving rise to the notion of a united humanity without the reality of nations or race?
-Above all else, the massive expansions in many fields of science that took place that brought about thousands of new technologies today which have expanded our living standard creating millions of new jobs? Would such things as these exist today if World War 2 had not occured?

Some reading this post will automatically have pointed the finger at me with reason as a pro-war idiot, however, ive accepted the fact the war is a rather simple human occurance with pretty specific reasons and outcomes, even forget the humanity behind it for a second and simply think of it as some event in time, war, or conflict, seems almost as a mechanism of human survival or way in which humanity morphs itself, adapts itself, or better yet, improves itself....

Does conflict define human existence? (both violent and non-violent)?)

[WorldCitizenMovement]

rdnor wrote: Does anyone know how Hitler really rose to power ? Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did Killing all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

I wont give the whole history, he was fairly and legally appointed chancellor, or head of goverment, on the morning of january 1933, then he just went his own way and redesigned government to his fashions.

He rose to power because he could control the mob. His oratory skills essentially led the Nazi party to prominence from the 1920s until the early 1930s when they became the largest party in government.

Im reading a book called the Nuremburg trials where a psychologist interviewed many of hitlers top administrative officials. I think it was Goering who described Hitler as the type of man who you would walk into his office thinking you were going to convince him from your point of view on a partiular issue and walk back out a minute later convinced otherwise.

Aside from being able to control the mob with his tounge, he realized a few further truths about the mob other than simply screaming at them.

1. The Bigger the lie the more people will believe in it; he realized propaganda was the one principle mechanism (other than his own charisma) to indoctrinate the people with a particular view on reality...which Gobbells, his minister for propaganda and enlightenment so famous for executing.

2. Give the people something to love and something to hate; excessive jingoism and hate for the jews and anything else un-german.

Another significant fact that allowed Hitlers rise to such power was the institutionalization of Germany's military into its economic life. By rebuilding the capacity of the German military machine by leaps and bounds, Hitlers power was essentially solidified.

As a last note, Hitlers rise to power, from the time he was discharged from military sevice in 1919 and began his political ascension until 1933 when he was sworn in as chancellor of Germany, his rise to that state was pretty much fair and democratic (I believe, id have to research that, this is all from memory so correct me if im wrong if there was any anti-semitism used as political tactics during that period between 1919-1933)

[SaintLucifer]

NobleOne wrote: rdnor wrote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did Killing all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

If Hitler had not rose to power and so on, my parents would never have met and I wouldn't exist.
So I for one am glad he did.

You mean if Hitler had not 'risen' to power. Wonderful education system in your home country yes?

[SaintLucifer]

Hyde wrote: NobleOne wrote: rdnor wrote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

If had not rose to power and so on, my parents would never have met and I wouldn't exist.
So I for one am glad he did.

so your saying that even though rose to power, killed milions, and started a world war, it is ok because you were born.
WTF!!!!!!!!

Learn to read. He said no such thing. He merely points out that WWII led to his parents meeting resulting in his birth, nothing more. Get a grip.

[SaintLucifer]

WorldCitizenMovement wrote: Hyde wrote: NobleOne wrote: rdnor wrote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

If had not rose to power and so on, my parents would never have met and I wouldn't exist.
So I for one am glad he did.

so your saying that even though rose to power, killed milions, and started a world war, it is ok because you were born.
WTF!!!!!!!!

Well he didnt kill millions himself, his secret police did and Nazi officials did, there actually is no evidence that hitler began the mass killings, though lesser officials there is evidence, and Hitler didnt really start WW2 so to speak, it was Britian and France whom owning half the world or so who declared war on Germany brought the world to war really. If Britain or France were not imperialistic than really this would've been one more of the many thousands of European Wars. We cannot escape blame as well, our planes, soldiers, and bombs killed millions of innocent civilians as well. However, on the flip side, or the positive side, if World War 2 did not happen....

-Would the conception of a "global community exist"
-What about the massive technology that was brought about during those times
-Would the UN or the conception of "international justice" and "humanitarian rights" exist today as they do
-How much longer would the depression have gone on for if it were not for WW2 bringing the world out of it?
-Would the world be as intolerant as it is today to genocide, hate, war, and other such human phenomenon?
-Would such things as the world citizen movement have conceptualized which is quickly giving rise to the notion of a united humanity without the reality of nations or race?
-Above all else, the massive expansions in many fields of science that took place that brought about thousands of new technologies today which have expanded our living standard creating millions of new jobs? Would such things as these exist today if World War 2 had not occured?

Some reading this post will automatically have pointed the finger at me with reason as a pro-war idiot, however, ive accepted the fact the war is a rather simple human occurance with pretty specific reasons and outcomes, even forget the humanity behind it for a second and simply think of it as some event in time, war, or conflict, seems almost as a mechanism of human survival or way in which humanity morphs itself, adapts itself, or better yet, improves itself....

Does conflict define human existence? (both violent and non-violent)?)

Hitler did not kill millions but his secret police did? Under whose orders do you think they carried out the killings? Damn. Here I am a true fascist yet I have pikers like this telling everyone Hitler was innocent. The Gestapo was Hitler's personal death squad. There was no evidence that Hitler began the mass killings? The man is leader of all Nazi Germany with untold powers and he had no part in the mass killings?? WTF?? I guess you also believe Slobodan Milosevic was innocent too yes?

Let me get this straight. You are blaming Britain and France for starting WWII? How did you come to this conclusion and what do their colonies have to do with anything? Were any of their colonies in Europe? What's your point? Hitler INVADED Czechoslovakia, Austria and Poland. He massed his troops at the border with France. Those are all acts of war. Great Britain WARNED Hitler not to touch Poland. He ignored the British. He invaded Poland. What's the matter with you?? Nothing I cannot stand more than a Hitler apologist AND I AM A FASCIST! Christ on a stick.

British and American warplanes destroyed German cities, taking innocent civilian lives as well yes. That is the price of war. Where is your sympathy for the British whose country was literally laid waste? My family was there at the time so do not spout about how much the German people suffered in war. That truly pisses me off especially when I had to listen to my grandfather speak of the suffering he experienced and saw. I will NOT feel sympathy for nation that started the conflagration. My family's homeland was laid waste. Feel sorry for them, not a nation of warmongers.

The concept of a 'world community' would have existed with or without WWII. Technology would have brought it about as it is doing today. War does not drive nations together. Technology cuts short great distances.

The technology would have come about regardless of the war. In some instances war speeds up innovation but innovation would arrive nontheless whether there is war or not. Some may argue technology would have been faster due to more money being spent on innovations rather than new tanks, planes, field guns etc.

WWII did not end the Depression. The world was already beginning to recover from it. Economic turnarounds were everywhere, including Germany. It was painfully slow but it was coming.

Yes. The world would today be as intolerant. Absolutely. WWII was mainly a 'white' war so there was little racism with the exception of the Pacific War. The racism would have been extant war or no war.

Yes. As I have already stated, globalism was inevitable. War or no war. Technology created globalism, not war.

The technologies and standards of living would have been pretty much the same. In fact, they may have been even better. War costs money. Entire economies were destroyed as a result of that war. I would know. My familial homeland was laid waste. We had to rebuild. WWII cost us our Empire. If not for WWII, 1/4 of the world would still be ours today.

[melchizedek22]

Hitler came to power because Germany got f****d so bad after the Great War.
If he had not been so damn dumb as to attack Russia,western Europe
would still be one big Germany

[Matt C.]

NobleOne wrote: rdnor wrote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did Killing all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

If Hitler had not rose to power and so on, my parents would never have met and I wouldn't exist.
So I for one am glad he did.

If Hitler never rose to power, my grandparents would never have met, and moved here, and America wouldnt be the only remaining superpower in the world either.

Also, people wouldn't have a good example to use in why we need a great military even in peace time, etc

So I am also glad.

[satirecafe]

SaintLucifer wrote: Hyde wrote: NobleOne wrote: rdnor wrote: Does anyone care as long as he did not have WMD ? Did all those Jews effect you ? If so , how ?

If had not rose to power and so on, my parents would never have met and I wouldn't exist.
So I for one am glad he did.

so your saying that even though rose to power, killed milions, and started a world war, it is ok because you were born.
WTF!!!!!!!!

Learn to read. He said no such thing. He merely points out that WWII led to his parents meeting resulting in his birth, nothing more. Get a grip.

He said that he is glad Hitler rose to power because it led to his birth. A really selfish thing to say, but he probably didn't mean it that way. I say idiotic things too sometimes.

[Spider]

Did the killings of all those jews affect me?

Of course it did, it affected everyone if for no other reason than now we have to live in the world with the shadow of the holocuast laying over us. Yes, this disgusting event has changed the entire world, and the contined conflict in Isreal and palastine is a direct result of these issues.

[satirecafe]

Spider wrote: Did the killings of all those jews affect me?

Of course it did, it affected everyone if for no other reason than now we have to live in the world with the shadow of the holocuast laying over us. Yes, this disgusting event has changed the entire world, and the contined conflict in Isreal and palastine is a direct result of these issues.

I agree. you have to think about it this way; albert einstein left europe before the war, and look at everything he ended up accomplishing. imagine how many more albert einsteins would have achieved greatness had hitler not come to power.

[Vaterlandsmann]

Quote:
so your saying that even though rose to power, killed milions, and started a world war, it is ok because you were born.
WTF!!!!!!!!

Umm...hold on a second. No it's not right what hitler has done,,,

BUT:

1.Stalin killed 43 million (hitler 'murdered' 6 million)..a big difference eh.
2. Many of his policies also had good sides..unfortunately bad ones too

Hitlers power was an education to the world (the generation)..of course he will be forgotten some time and it will repeat. Thats what happenes when people get fed up!!

[Spider]

Vaterlandsmann wrote: Quote:
so your saying that even though rose to power, killed milions, and started a world war, it is ok because you were born.
WTF!!!!!!!!

Umm...hold on a second. No it's not right what hitler has done,,,

BUT:

1.Stalin killed 43 million (hitler 'murdered' 6 million)..a big difference eh.
2. Many of his policies also had good sides..unfortunately bad ones too

Hitlers power was an education to the world (the generation)..of course he will be forgotten some time and it will repeat. Thats what happenes when people get fed up!!

I happen to think that in the modern world...you know, with modern literacy and record keeping, something like the holocuast and Hitler and what he and his followers did, will never, ever, be forgotten.

If we can put together enough peices about Alexander the Great to judge his possible sexual preference, I don't think we'll have an trouble remembering the man who attempted to destroy an entire people through industrialized mass extermination. Especially since we have so much of the aftermath on film, and recordings of personal accounts of survivors and the men responsible.

[cup2006Sens]

satirecafe wrote: Spider wrote: Did the killings of all those jews affect me?

Of course it did, it affected everyone if for no other reason than now we have to live in the world with the shadow of the holocuast laying over us. Yes, this disgusting event has changed the entire world, and the contined conflict in Isreal and palastine is a direct result of these issues.

I agree. you have to think about it this way; albert einstein left europe before the war, and look at everything he ended up accomplishing. imagine how many more albert einsteins would have achieved greatness had hitler not come to power.

Einstein accomplished much more in Europe. He already had won the nobel prize.

The American and Russian missile scientists who designed much of the rockets used for missiles and the space race were significantly composed of European Jews that either fled the holocost to America or were captured by the Soviets at the end of the war.

[Rusthlen`]

Quote: Hitlers power was an education to the world (the generation)..of course he will be forgotten some time and it will repeat. Thats what happenes when people get fed up!!



Do you really believe that one day Hitler and the WW, and everything will be forgotten? It's true, that people will look over or not compare what happened years ago to what may happen in the future, but that isn't becuase they will forget the past, it is because they will be ignorant to the past.

If Hitler educated the world with his idea that killing people of a diff. religion was the light, and people all learned from his mistakes,-okay, it educated people-but if it repeats again, how is that educating? Wouldn't it just be waste of dead innocent bodies?

--
As to the question pertaining to if the killing affected me...there's two sides of the matter to that. In general, of course, the deaths of so many people just for a cuase of ruling the whole world-as far as I believe, did Hitler have any reason other than the selfishness to rule the world? Did he have some calling from some higher being that he needed to fulfill? No—so when the question is asked of these deaths, of course it affected me. What other reason is there to it, people died for something that if Hitler actually ruled the world-at least those deaths meant for something- but no, they just died for no reason-and that’s why it affected me.