Political Crossfire Forums

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

Todd D. wrote: Quote: Downloading a movie, music, games, or even books off the internet is stealing.
Absolutely 100% incorrect. Like, you couldn't BE more wrong if you tried.

Theft is the robbery of someone else's property. If I steal someone's wallet, the crime is the fact that they no longer have their wallet. My theft has deprived them of property that was theirs, and they no longer have it. That's the very definition of "stealing".

File sharing is entirely seperate from this. With file sharing, you make perfect duplicates to distribute as you see fit. Wheras with theft it's either "you have it" or "I have it", with file sharing it's "I have this...do you want it?" The two are so not even comparable it's not funny.

Calling the download of files "stealing" or "theft" just shows the ignorance that the RIAA or the MPAA sees the American public as, and the willingness of the American public to accept, even glorify, such definitions. If you think that it's stealing, then you are retarded, plain and simple. It's not stealing, period. You can make a good case that it is "wrong", but it is in no way shape or form "stealing".

The theft is that you have stolen someone else's money, Todd.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the RIAA, the laws and technology being put in place to help the recording industry avoid finding a new buisiness model, and the monopoly powers that the recording industry has and their unfair business practices (one of the quickest ways for a musicain to go bankrupt is by signing a record contract). But downloading copyrighted material without paying for the rights to use that material is still stealing.

mcmlv · Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Posts: 75

Ah, a concise and balanced presentation of the issue. Thank you.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: one of the quickest ways for a musicain to go bankrupt is by signing a record contract

Only if they are dumb enough to sign a bogus contract and not have a lawyer look it over first.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: one of the quickest ways for a musicain to go bankrupt is by signing a record contract

Only if they are dumb enough to sign a bogus contract and not have a lawyer look it over first.

True. But the typical "Here's a $200,000 advance, out of which you will pay for the cost of producing and promoting 3 albums as well as the cost of the tours to supoprt them" deal pushed across a table in a smoky bar at some drunken wannabe rock stars has ruined many a life.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

That's what happens to you when you are drunk and stupid.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

cap'n queasy wrote: That's what happens to you when you are drunk and stupid.

Hey man, smart sober rock stars don't exactly grow on trees :)

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

You'd be surprised. A lot of them are canny businessmen and make a nice living.

Some start out slow and learn with experience. It's just another business.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

LetsGetReal wrote: Hi,

I'm writing this in the christian forum because it is to Christians but should be acknowledged by non-believers as well. Downloading a movie, music, games, or even books off the internet is stealing. I see so many christian kids listening to burned Cd's like it isn't wrong. I believe this is a big problem and should be addressed more in the church. I try my best not to take advantage of things that seem so easy and innocent, but I've still done it. So I'm guilty of this too but I will work on it even more, because in the end it is wrong. Please try to do your bests to do the smallest things to avoid sin. Remember lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, and taking the lords name in vane is a sin. If you need help look at my sig, it has a beatiful verse that may help you.

Thanks,

LGR

P.S. Every sin we commit is more of a burden that Jesus Christ has to carry.
It's only stealing it you take it against the will of the person who owns it. If someone bought a CD/DVD & wants to give you a copy of it, that is fine.
If you break into someone's house/computer & take it w/o asking & w/o the owner giving you permission, that is wrong

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Hi,

I'm writing this in the christian forum because it is to Christians but should be acknowledged by non-believers as well. Downloading a movie, music, games, or even books off the internet is stealing. I see so many christian kids listening to burned Cd's like it isn't wrong. I believe this is a big problem and should be addressed more in the church. I try my best not to take advantage of things that seem so easy and innocent, but I've still done it. So I'm guilty of this too but I will work on it even more, because in the end it is wrong. Please try to do your bests to do the smallest things to avoid sin. Remember lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, and taking the lords name in vane is a sin. If you need help look at my sig, it has a beatiful verse that may help you.

Thanks,

LGR

P.S. Every sin we commit is more of a burden that Jesus Christ has to carry.
It's only stealing it you take it against the will of the person who owns it. If someone bought a CD/DVD & wants to give you a copy of it, that is fine.
If you break into someone's house/computer & take it w/o asking & w/o the owner giving you permission, that is wrong

It is stealing, because the copy is not your friend's to give. You own a CD, but you rent the contents of the CD.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

mattwa33193 wrote: toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Hi,

I'm writing this in the christian forum because it is to Christians but should be acknowledged by non-believers as well. Downloading a movie, music, games, or even books off the internet is stealing. I see so many christian kids listening to burned Cd's like it isn't wrong. I believe this is a big problem and should be addressed more in the church. I try my best not to take advantage of things that seem so easy and innocent, but I've still done it. So I'm guilty of this too but I will work on it even more, because in the end it is wrong. Please try to do your bests to do the smallest things to avoid sin. Remember lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, and taking the lords name in vane is a sin. If you need help look at my sig, it has a beatiful verse that may help you.

Thanks,

LGR

P.S. Every sin we commit is more of a burden that Jesus Christ has to carry.
It's only stealing it you take it against the will of the person who owns it. If someone bought a CD/DVD & wants to give you a copy of it, that is fine.
If you break into someone's house/computer & take it w/o asking & w/o the owner giving you permission, that is wrong

It is stealing, because the copy is not your friend's to give. You own a CD, but you rent the contents of the CD.
If he bought the CD, that copy is his to give. If he 'rents' to contents, then he must give the CD 's contents back to the place he bought it from when he is done with it.

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

Cap'n, CNET disagrees with you.

As does New Scientist

Oh, and the Washington Post

Personally, i trust THEM more than i trust YOU cap.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Researchers at two leading universities have issued a study countering the music industry's central theme in its war on digital piracy, saying file sharing has little impact on CD sales.

"We find that file sharing has only had a limited effect on record sales," Felix Oberholzer-Gee of Harvard Business School and Koleman Strumpf of University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill said in their report. "The economic effect is also small. Even in the most pessimistic specification, five thousand downloads are needed to displace a single album sale."

The Recording Industry Association of America, the trade group representing the music industry, was quick to denounce the report's conclusions.

"Countless, well-respected groups and analysts, including Edison Research, Forrester, the University of Texas, among others, have all determined that illegal file sharing has adversely impacted the sales of CDs," RIAA spokeswoman Amy Weiss said in a statement.

http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,62871,00.html

Perhaps if you were in the music industry instead of someone who wants to illegally download people's work without paying for it you would see things differently. Obviously it takes no more than one download to displace a CD sale because who is going to buy a CD they have downloaded for free.
Quote: A study from University of Texas at Dallas professor Stan Liebowitz released last summer found some negative impact but said it was hard to quantify.

"My conclusions, in a nutshell, are that MP3 downloading does appear to be causing harm. No other explanations that have been put forward seem to be able to explain the decline in sales that have occurred since 1999," Liebowitz said, referring to songs downloaded to digital music players.

The 33% decline in CD sales speaks for itself. That is a massive drop in sales.
Quote: The RIAA's own research found a 33 percent drop in music purchases by young adults who download music over a year earlier.

I don't care who you trust more.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Researchers at two leading universities have issued a study countering the music industry's central theme in its war on digital piracy, saying file sharing has little impact on CD sales.

"We find that file sharing has only had a limited effect on record sales," Felix Oberholzer-Gee of Harvard Business School and Koleman Strumpf of University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill said in their report. "The economic effect is also small. Even in the most pessimistic specification, five thousand downloads are needed to displace a single album sale."

The Recording Industry Association of America, the trade group representing the music industry, was quick to denounce the report's conclusions.

"Countless, well-respected groups and analysts, including Edison Research, Forrester, the University of Texas, among others, have all determined that illegal file sharing has adversely impacted the sales of CDs," RIAA spokeswoman Amy Weiss said in a statement.

http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,62871,00.html

Perhaps if you were in the music industry instead of someone who wants to illegally download people's work without paying for it you would see things differently. Obviously it takes no more than one download to displace a CD sale because who is going to buy a CD they have downloaded for free.
Quote: A study from University of Texas at Dallas professor Stan Liebowitz released last summer found some negative impact but said it was hard to quantify.

"My conclusions, in a nutshell, are that MP3 downloading does appear to be causing harm. No other explanations that have been put forward seem to be able to explain the decline in sales that have occurred since 1999," Liebowitz said, referring to songs downloaded to digital music players.

The 33% decline in CD sales speaks for itself. That is a massive drop in sales.
Quote: The RIAA's own research found a 33 percent drop in music purchases by young adults who download music over a year earlier.

I don't care who you trust more.
Maybe the reason the RIAA has seen a 33% drop in sales is b/c the music they produce utterly s*cks??

Seems like one pretty reasonable explanation..

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Then why are people downloading it? That's a contradiction in terms.

And saying something s*cks still doesn't give anyone a right to steal it.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: Then why are people downloading it? That's a contradiction in terms.
b/c it's not worth a $14.99 CD or whatever they're currently charging.

But it might be worth listening to for free..

Who wants to pay $14.99 for crap when you can get it free?

Quote: And saying something s*cks still doesn't give anyone a right to steal it.
The corporations have stolen quite enough from the American people over the years.

I think they can stand the shaving. They're long overdue for it anyway.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

toddytodd wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Hi,

I'm writing this in the christian forum because it is to Christians but should be acknowledged by non-believers as well. Downloading a movie, music, games, or even books off the internet is stealing. I see so many christian kids listening to burned Cd's like it isn't wrong. I believe this is a big problem and should be addressed more in the church. I try my best not to take advantage of things that seem so easy and innocent, but I've still done it. So I'm guilty of this too but I will work on it even more, because in the end it is wrong. Please try to do your bests to do the smallest things to avoid sin. Remember lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, and taking the lords name in vane is a sin. If you need help look at my sig, it has a beatiful verse that may help you.

Thanks,

LGR

P.S. Every sin we commit is more of a burden that Jesus Christ has to carry.
It's only stealing it you take it against the will of the person who owns it. If someone bought a CD/DVD & wants to give you a copy of it, that is fine.
If you break into someone's house/computer & take it w/o asking & w/o the owner giving you permission, that is wrong

It is stealing, because the copy is not your friend's to give. You own a CD, but you rent the contents of the CD.
If he bought the CD, that copy is his to give. If he 'rents' to contents, then he must give the CD 's contents back to the place he bought it from when he is done with it.

You need to learn a little more about intellectual property law.

The lease is perpetual, with a one time fee of whatever price was agreed upon - at least thats how it works out. If you actually purchased the contents then you would be correct because the owner would have no further rights to those contents or control over what happened to them. Copyright law pretty clearly states otherwise.

This is all black-letter law. Buying a book does not give you the right to make photocopies and distribute them, even for free. Never has. Same with music. Ask Paul McCartney.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

cap'n queasy wrote: Then why are people downloading it? That's a contradiction in terms.

And saying something s*cks still doesn't give anyone a right to steal it.

Because people don't want to spend $15 for 11 songs that really suck just so they can get the one they really like, or $3 for 2 songs when they only want one. And of course the behavior is self-perpetuating.

Last time I went to concert, which was a few years ago, the cost for 2 tickets, a copy of the CD being promoted, and 2 t-shirts was $290. A little pricey. On top of which the tour was sponsored by 2 major corporations and the concert itself had 3 additional sponsors. We used to be told that the reason records cost so much was because it cost so much to promote them. Now, the record companies have made the record and the promotion both profit centers, and prices for both have gone up. Something has to give.

But I agree that none of this gives anyone the right to steal.

Omega1 · Joined: 29 Apr 2006 Posts: 456

I really think they don't care if someone is burning their cds. They're millionaires. By the way, WWJD? He would want them to give some of it away and share it with the world.

Just like in these verses...

Matthew
19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Then why are people downloading it? That's a contradiction in terms.
b/c it's not worth a $14.99 CD or whatever they're currently charging.

But it might be worth listening to for free..

Who wants to pay $14.99 for crap when you can get it free?

Quote: And saying something s*cks still doesn't give anyone a right to steal it.
The corporations have stolen quite enough from the American people over the years.

I think they can stand the shaving. They're long overdue for it anyway.

Quote: b/c it's not worth a $14.99 CD or whatever they're currently charging.
Agreed. Out of all the CDs I own (probably 70-ish) only 2 or 3 have been worth the price, meaning the entire CD is good. Normally, for me, it is 3 & at best 4 songs, that are any good. The rest I never really listen to more than one or twice. There may be an online market for music companies to sell individual songs for 50¢ or $1 or something like that, & offer a free sample of each song to decide what you want to purchase, instead of selling a whole CD (if this doesn't exist already). But some people just want everything for free so downloading will still happen, not matter the price I suppose.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

mattwa33193 wrote: toddytodd wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Hi,

I'm writing this in the christian forum because it is to Christians but should be acknowledged by non-believers as well. Downloading a movie, music, games, or even books off the internet is stealing. I see so many christian kids listening to burned Cd's like it isn't wrong. I believe this is a big problem and should be addressed more in the church. I try my best not to take advantage of things that seem so easy and innocent, but I've still done it. So I'm guilty of this too but I will work on it even more, because in the end it is wrong. Please try to do your bests to do the smallest things to avoid sin. Remember lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, and taking the lords name in vane is a sin. If you need help look at my sig, it has a beatiful verse that may help you.

Thanks,

LGR

P.S. Every sin we commit is more of a burden that Jesus Christ has to carry.
It's only stealing it you take it against the will of the person who owns it. If someone bought a CD/DVD & wants to give you a copy of it, that is fine.
If you break into someone's house/computer & take it w/o asking & w/o the owner giving you permission, that is wrong

It is stealing, because the copy is not your friend's to give. You own a CD, but you rent the contents of the CD.
If he bought the CD, that copy is his to give. If he 'rents' to contents, then he must give the CD 's contents back to the place he bought it from when he is done with it.

You need to learn a little more about intellectual property law.

The lease is perpetual, with a one time fee of whatever price was agreed upon - at least thats how it works out. If you actually purchased the contents then you would be correct because the owner would have no further rights to those contents or control over what happened to them. Copyright law pretty clearly states otherwise.

This is all black-letter law. Buying a book does not give you the right to make photocopies and distribute them, even for free. Never has. Same with music. Ask Paul McCartney.

I apologize - I should have been more clear. I wasn't speaking to legally stealing, I was speaking to the morallity of stealing. I don't know, nor ever eluded to, knowing ANYTHING about the actual laws :lol: