Political Crossfire Forums

[garyd]

Jesus never was financailly established nor was he ever established in a trade hence it would not have been unusual at all for him to be unmarried at the time of his death and ressurection.

[mattwa33193]

garyd wrote: Jesus never was financailly established nor was he ever established in a trade hence it would not have been unusual at all for him to be unmarried at the time of his death and ressurection.

So that whole carpenter thing.. what? A hoax?

[garyd]

Did Jesus do some carpentry, probably but he didn't stay with it long enough to become established in a trade which took years and he had other things he had to do.

[mattwa33193]

garyd wrote: Did Jesus do some carpentry, probably but he didn't stay with it long enough to become established in a trade which took years and he had other things he had to do.

He practiced carpentry for around 20 years. He was established well enough to be known as a carpenter from Nazareth. The church itself refers to Him as a Nazarene carpenter. He was a carpenter.

[garyd]

Sorry, his apprenticeship wouldn't begun until his late teens if he even attempted that and given his religious inclinations it is doubtful he did much more than help out by fetching and carrying wood for his father. And he was also a traveling preacher by the time he was thirty giving you at most fifteen and likely less. Given that acheiving journey man status in the middle ages took you into your mid thirties, It is highly unlikely that 15 years would have been enough to establish him in the trade especially given as I said that his true calling lie elsewhere.

[psholtz]

mattwa33193 wrote: Didn't say there were verses documenting that He honored the Sabbath, just that when questioned He successfully argued that He (or more correctly His followers) was not violating the Sabbath which indicates that this was something He cared about. Mark 2:23-27.

Same for the dietary laws. Mark 7:18-20.

There is no biblical documentation that He did most things that Jews did at that time. There also isn't biblical documentation that he defecated, breathed, actually ever made anything out of wood, or got married. Doesn't mean it never happened. But how could he possibly have been thought of as a rabbi if He didn't observe Jewish customs?
So what you're saying is that you've been unable to produce proof that Jesus:

* Ever observed a Sabbath
* Ever observed any Jewish dietary law
* Ever sacrified an animal in the Temple the way a good Jew should

And yet you still think that Jesus was a "practicing Jew?"

[garyd]

There are also no verses saying that he did not obey them. Unless he ate with the Romans there would have been no way for him not to obey the dietary laws for those would have been in force in every Jewish household.

[psholtz]

garyd wrote: There are also no verses saying that he did not obey them.
Oh the contrary.. He calls the Pharisees "ignorant dullards" for adhering to their dietary laws. You're correct it doesn't explicity say that he broke the dietary laws, but the implication that he did is certainly stronger than the implication that he didn't.

[eynon]

ideal wrote: That's what you can see in your favor. The church, however, can use his not being married to prevent clergy from marrying thereby a.having more control over said clergy and b.preventing the need to support the children of said clergy.

Clearly more suited to the church's goals(at different times in history).

good point :-D

but..........Rome(as in Church not Empire) was not the only source of authority in Dark Ages Europe....infact early on the weren't even the major source.
Constantinople served as the power behind the Church until the time of Charlemange. The Greek church, not the Latin church is the source for most of our early sources on Christianity AND the priests in the Greek church can marry.
Any attempt by an early Pope to dramatically alter the story of Jesus, as in remove his wife, would have met with stern opposition from both the Greek Emperor and Patriach of the Greek church. Not to mention a general revolt among the numerous Bishops and clergy with far closer ties to local politics then to Rome.

In addition we also have numbers of early source documents(although not as old as the Greek) from the Celtic Church based out of Ireland, Wales, and Brittany. Cut off by German invasions from the rest of the empire this church developed seperatly from Rome for nearly 800 years....it provides no source or traditions about Jesus being married.

Same could be said for the many Christian Sects that existed under the power of Islam(Coptics, Syrian Orthodox, Armenian)

Nor the Churches that developed in Southern India or Ethiopia.....both early Churches cut off from Romes' authority.

[Lumina]

mattwa33193 wrote: garyd wrote: Jesus never was financailly established nor was he ever established in a trade hence it would not have been unusual at all for him to be unmarried at the time of his death and ressurection.

So that whole carpenter thing.. what? A hoax?

Ya, evidently. Just today I was behind a vehicle with the bumper sticker "My boss is a Jewish carpenter." Nah, Jesus never made it past His carpentry apprenticeship, LOL. It's simply recognized over 2000 years later, LOL.

[airo]

mattwa33193 wrote: garyd wrote: Jesus never was financailly established nor was he ever established in a trade hence it would not have been unusual at all for him to be unmarried at the time of his death and ressurection.

So that whole carpenter thing.. what? A hoax? I mean, he DID invent the bar stool. At least, according to Mel Gibson.

That had to bring in a little change.

[mattwa33193]

The fact is that we know next to nothing about Jesus from just after He was born until He was about 30. It makes no sense to assume that He lived anything other than a normal life during that time - if He didn't, if anything unusual or spectacular happened in those 30 years, why is there no mention of it in the Bible (or anywhere else)?

I see only 2 scenarios that make any sense. First, He was a carpenter. A tekton, actually (that is the Greek word used in the Bible, but it was translated to carpenter), which means fabricator - skilled in making and building things out of wood, metal, and stone. Since His father (or step-father) was a tekton, His apprenticeship would have started when He was very young - He would have been sweeping and carrying before He was 10, probably earlier. Remember, Gary, that He wouldn't have to be accepted into an apprenticeship like other kids, and this was not the middle ages. And He spent the next 20 years or so in His trade. Business would have been good, as Herod had a huge public works project going on 4 miles down the road to rebuild the city of Sepphoris. This theory is born out by the fact that when He returned to His home town with his disciples, the people were shocked to see Him teaching in the synogogue, as He had never been a rabbi before (Mark 6:1-4). He had never given any indication that He was anything but a tradesman before He left home.

The other possibility is that He was actually quite wealthy. The bible also says that the 3 wise men brought the baby Jesus a gift of gold fit for a king, and they were from a pretty wealthy part of the world. The Old Testament says that Solomon received 39 Imperial tons of gold in one year (I Kings 10:14). Obviously, Jesus didn't get that much but it illustrates that a gift fit for a king was not a small amount. So maybe Jesus was a layabout, or He spent all His time studying and gaining enlightenment and was simply not ready to speak in public until He was about 30.

And again, you can't ignore the fact that He was one of the most charismatic men in history. This would have been good for business, and good for attracting a wife.

I have no doubt that He would have given up any wealth or property that He had amassed when He started His ministry, but it is far more likely that He actually was an established man in one way or another by the time He was 30.

[mattwa33193]

garyd wrote: It would mean sir that he was no different from any other man and therefore unworthy of worship. You see he wasn't just a man. He was both God and Man and in fact from a metaphysical perspective has to be...

But married or not, tradesman or not, He was different.

He changed people's lives. He taught us lessons that we are still learning from 2000 years later. He lived a life that we should all aspire to. And He died for His beliefs when He was one of the few martys that was actually given a choice in the matter.

[psholtz]

mattwa33193 wrote: The fact is that we know next to nothing about Jesus from just after He was born until He was about 30.
What makes you think we don't know anything about Jesus until he was 30?

Quote: It makes no sense to assume that He lived anything other than a normal life during that time - if He didn't, if anything unusual or spectacular happened in those 30 years, why is there no mention of it in the Bible (or anywhere else)?
I would argue that given how extra-ordinary the last 3 years of his life were, it stands to reason that the first 30 were anything but ordinary either. Perhaps one reason there is no mention of those first 30 years in the Bible is b/c they were lived out more-or-less in secret, for instance with the Essenes or some other such group. If this should be the case, then this too would be a rather "extra"-odinary thing to do w/ the first 30 years of your life, don't you think?

[mattwa33193]

psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: The fact is that we know next to nothing about Jesus from just after He was born until He was about 30.
What makes you think we don't know anything about Jesus until he was 30?

Quote: It makes no sense to assume that He lived anything other than a normal life during that time - if He didn't, if anything unusual or spectacular happened in those 30 years, why is there no mention of it in the Bible (or anywhere else)?
I would argue that given how extra-ordinary the last 3 years of his life were, it stands to reason that the first 30 were anything but ordinary either. Perhaps one reason there is no mention of those first 30 years in the Bible is b/c they were lived out more-or-less in secret, for instance with the Essenes or some other such group. If this should be the case, then this too would be a rather "extra"-odinary thing to do w/ the first 30 years of your life, don't you think?

Yes it would, but if He lived in secret the people from His hometown probably wouldn't have recognized Him when they saw Him in the synogogue.

[mattwa33193]

psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: The fact is that we know next to nothing about Jesus from just after He was born until He was about 30.
What makes you think we don't know anything about Jesus until he was 30?



What do we know?

[psholtz]

mattwa33193 wrote: psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: The fact is that we know next to nothing about Jesus from just after He was born until He was about 30.
What makes you think we don't know anything about Jesus until he was 30?



What do we know?
More than you think.

[mattwa33193]

psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: The fact is that we know next to nothing about Jesus from just after He was born until He was about 30.
What makes you think we don't know anything about Jesus until he was 30?



What do we know?
More than you think.

Oh.

I was obviously mistaken.

Thank you for your persuasive argument.

[psholtz]

mattwa33193 wrote: psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: The fact is that we know next to nothing about Jesus from just after He was born until He was about 30.
What makes you think we don't know anything about Jesus until he was 30?

Quote: It makes no sense to assume that He lived anything other than a normal life during that time - if He didn't, if anything unusual or spectacular happened in those 30 years, why is there no mention of it in the Bible (or anywhere else)?
I would argue that given how extra-ordinary the last 3 years of his life were, it stands to reason that the first 30 were anything but ordinary either. Perhaps one reason there is no mention of those first 30 years in the Bible is b/c they were lived out more-or-less in secret, for instance with the Essenes or some other such group. If this should be the case, then this too would be a rather "extra"-odinary thing to do w/ the first 30 years of your life, don't you think?

Yes it would, but if He lived in secret the people from His hometown probably wouldn't have recognized Him when they saw Him in the synogogue.
I'm 32, and I haven't changed much since I was 17 and graduated high school. Recently I got on a plane and was sitting right next to an old high school classmate of mine I hadn't seen since graduation. I hadn't changed a bit, and neither had he (in terms of outward appearance).

[psholtz]

mattwa33193 wrote: psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: psholtz wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: The fact is that we know next to nothing about Jesus from just after He was born until He was about 30.
What makes you think we don't know anything about Jesus until he was 30?



What do we know?
More than you think.

Oh.

I was obviously mistaken.

Thank you for your persuasive argument.
You're welcome.. :-D