Political Crossfire Forums

[garyd]

To commit suicide is to play at being God and that is always a sin at least that is the classic view.

[airo]

garyd wrote: To commit suicide is to play at being God and that is always a sin at least that is the classic view. How is it playing at being God?

That only God can decide when to kill people?

So, are you not allowed to defend your life, or the life of your loved ones, because doing so would be "playing God"?

What about taking medication for terminal diseases? I would think that God wants you to die. Who are you to go against him?

[John]

Suicide is stupid.

[feederband]

John wrote: Suicide is stupid.

We agree on something..

[Todd D.]

John wrote: Suicide is stupid.
I wouldn't say it's "stupid" any more than, say, Alcoholism is "stupid". It's a very grave choice that I feel is the combination of a great number of things, some of which very well could be out of the individual's control. I do however feel that it represents a poor choice and would, in a way, display a lack of faith in God.

Per usual, the Catechism explains itsself far better than I could.

Quote: 2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives
Emphasis Mine.

[feederband]

Every person regardless of faith has a breaking point...I had a family member that was a believer comit suicide... Problems with Heath+marriage+beer did him in...Nobody seen it coming...I can't imagine life at anypoint getting that bad but for him it was...

[Lee_p413]

Quote: Suicide is stupid.

I agree too.

It's not the same as other choices. In fact, since you compared to alcoholism, that's not impossible either - or being a smoker. Any of those thigns a person can quit cold turkey. Just stop. It's a question of willpower, but it can be done, because I've seen it.

Allowing oneself to be martyred (killed for belief in Christ/practice), killing oneself before being tortured and giving up secrets that endanger many lives (military, maybe), diving in front of the President as a Secret Service member... those things are at least questionable, if not obviously ok. But "depressed" situations...

Continuing to live is an act of willpower in depressed situations. I've been there. I know.

You just have to fight on, and if you kill yourself out of depression, however good a person you are, however Godly or not, however nice or mean, however cold or caring, however smart or stupid... the act itself is indeed a stupid one. It's a false escape. The easy way out of a bad life or situation.

[Todd D.]

Quote: It's not the same as other choices. In fact, since you compared to alcoholism, that's not impossible either - or being a smoker. Any of those thigns a person can quit cold turkey. Just stop. It's a question of willpower, but it can be done, because I've seen it.
Wow, way to figure out the difference between "Alcholism" and "Drinking Alcohol". Good job there.

Oh wait, did I say it was a matter of choice? Gosh darnit, I think I did when I said "I do however feel that it represents a poor choice and would, in a way, display a lack of faith in God.".

Quote: You just have to fight on, and if you kill yourself out of depression, however good a person you are, however Godly or not, however nice or mean, however cold or caring, however smart or stupid... the act itself is indeed a stupid one. It's a false escape. The easy way out of a bad life or situation.
"Stupid" connotates a lack of intelligence. This is not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of willpower and faith. Therefore referring to it as "Stupid" makes as much sense as calling someone with alcoholism "stupid". However wrong I may feel that it is, that doesn't mean that the decision itsself was not intelligently considered.

[xsuite]

cap'n queasy wrote: xsuite wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Eynon81 wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: I'm not going to attempt to judge it.

I think someone could repent and find the Lord as the life ebbed from their veins.

but....what if a believer kills themselves?

Well, I would say a professing believer might do that. And if that is the case, they may repent and find the Lord as the life ebbs away. I don't think someone who totally believed in their heart would commit suicide. The life God gives us is too precious for that. You would be wasting a second that you could be witnessing to a lost soul.

Especially if you were being tormented for your belief. I would much rather cheat the devil than cheat someone out of a chance for salvation.

That person who is tormenting you might be the one who is changed because he sees what you did. No true believer would miss an opportunity to like that to help save someone that was that lost.
Really good point there! But then to play worst case scenario that the torturer has marked himself with the mark of the beast. THen what!!

You will likely be decapitated.
actually i think that burning alive will be popular in the end times. Bummer for Christians.

[xsuite]

Todd D. wrote: Quote: It's not the same as other choices. In fact, since you compared to alcoholism, that's not impossible either - or being a smoker. Any of those thigns a person can quit cold turkey. Just stop. It's a question of willpower, but it can be done, because I've seen it.
Wow, way to figure out the difference between "Alcholism" and "Drinking Alcohol". Good job there.

Oh wait, did I say it was a matter of choice? Gosh darnit, I think I did when I said "I do however feel that it represents a poor choice and would, in a way, display a lack of faith in God.".

Quote: You just have to fight on, and if you kill yourself out of depression, however good a person you are, however Godly or not, however nice or mean, however cold or caring, however smart or stupid... the act itself is indeed a stupid one. It's a false escape. The easy way out of a bad life or situation.
"Stupid" connotates a lack of intelligence. This is not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of willpower and faith. Therefore referring to it as "Stupid" makes as much sense as calling someone with alcoholism "stupid". However wrong I may feel that it is, that doesn't mean that the decision itsself was not intelligently considered.
You are very right about that. Suicide can be thought out, who is to say that suicide isnt the wa god planned for one to die?

[Lee_p413]

Todd, since you for some reason took my thoughts as a personal attack on you, here goes.

Quote: Wow, way to figure out the difference between "Alcoholism" and "Drinking Alcohol". Good job there.
You know exactly what I mean. Alcoholism is indeed a disease. But guess what? You never have the problem if you never drink. And you can certainly stop drinking. I wasn't talking specifically about alcoholism itself. You know that. I said a person can quit - smoking, drinking, etc. They can.

Yes, suicide in those instances is a stupid choice. Stupid - that's what I meant. There is a definite lack of intelligence in that choice. Yes. You heard me. Don't correct what I meant clearly to say. Just because something is considered does not make the decision itself intelligent. I can intelligently think about taking a .45 semi-auto handgun and killing every member of my immediate family, then rampaging until I run out of bullets. But I guarantee you that that decision would be a stupid one if I made it.

Quote: Oh wait, did I say it was a matter of choice? Gosh darnit, I think I did when I said "I do however feel that it represents a poor choice and would, in a way, display a lack of faith in God.".
I have no real idea what you're talking about. Again, my comments were not directed at you, save for spring-boarding off the mention of alcoholism.


And by the way, comparison of alcoholism and suicide is not even a realistic one. Suicide is an action. A crime, actually, in most places. Alcoholism is a disease. A lifelong problem.

[Todd D.]

I didn't take it as a personal attack, since you didn't attack me personally.

Quote: You know exactly what I mean. Alcoholism is indeed a disease. But guess what? You never have the problem if you never drink.
What? Dealing with constant temptation and fighting back the urge to relapse isn't "the problem"? I would disagree with you there.

Quote: And you can certainly stop drinking. I wasn't talking specifically about alcoholism itself. You know that. I said a person can quit - smoking, drinking, etc. They can.
Of course they can, I never said that they couldn't. What you seem to be implying is that by choosing to no longer drink, the temptation is no longer there as well, and anyone that does have that temptation is therefore "stupid". That's the part that I take issue with.

Quote: Yes, suicide in those instances is a stupid choice. Stupid - that's what I meant. There is a definite lack of intelligence in that choice. Yes. You heard me. Don't correct what I meant clearly to say. Just because something is considered does not make the decision itself intelligent. I can intelligently think about taking a .45 semi-auto handgun and killing every member of my immediate family, then rampaging until I run out of bullets. But I guarantee you that that decision would be a stupid one if I made it.
Not necessarily. Think of the classic example from literature. Would you consider Hannibal Lechter to be "stupid"? Certainly not. He was incredibly intelligent, even if he was morally bankrupt. His decision to kill was certainly irresponsible, immoral, but to use the word "stupid" to describe it is innapropriate.

You again want to connotate suicide with a lack of intelligence, as if everyone who does so does so because they are lacking the intelligence to make a different decision. That is entirely false. Consider the scenario: You are in a POW forced labor camp. You KNOW that they will kill you in 2 weeks, they just want you to work for them in the meantime, assisiting in their war effort against your allies. Is suicide "stupid" then? I believe that it is the WRONG thing to do in that situation, but is it "stupid"? Absolutely not. There are very clear and intelligent reasons for deciding that fate, even if I disagree with the choice itsself.

Quote: And by the way, comparison of alcoholism and suicide is not even a realistic one. Suicide is an action. A crime, actually, in most places. Alcoholism is a disease. A lifelong problem.
Suicide is, more often than not, the result of someone feeling despair and the idea that life can no longer get any better from the desperate situation that they are currently in. That temptation could be present for a long time, in the same way that the constant temptation to drink is present for an alcoholic.

And your assertion that suicide is "a crime, actually, in most places" is false. Only six states currently list attempted suicide as a crime: the Dakotas, New Jersey, Washington, Oklahoma, and Nevada. 6/50 is not what I would consider "most".

[Addison]

Forced suicide--not a sin.
Sacrificial Suicide--(killing yourself to save one or many others) definitely not a sin.
Mental illness suicide--not a sin
Torturing suicide--not a sin.
Suicide by self, for no meaningful reason other than depression--sinful in that it is a destruction of the precious life given to you by God, and think of the pain your actions bring to others. How do your friends, family, loved ones feel when you kill yourself? Just so, sinful.

[airo]

And depression is not a mental illness?

[John]

airo wrote: And depression is not a mental illness?

Is hunger a mental illness?

Expecting that to completely go over your head.

[cap'n queasy]

airo wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: xsuite wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: I'm not going to attempt to judge it.

I think someone could repent and find the Lord as the life ebbed from their veins. what about a gunshot or bomb? repent before hand?

Don't commit suicide and you don't have to worry about it.

Anyway a thought only takes a microsecond.

Maybe you could repent as the bullet left the chamber. Who knows. That's getting a little legalistic, don't you think Cap'n?

Couldn't you repent BEFORE you commited suicide? I don't think you can fool God by waiting till afterwards to repent, or by only choosing a method of suicide that would give you a chance to repent after the work was done.
My statement is not legalistic at all, yours is.

I would say that this would be a false repentance if you continued on the course of suicide after "repenting". That would be trying to fool God by using a "legal maneuver". You would only be fooling yourself by doing that.

I'm pretty sure you get pretty sincere when you life is leaving your body and there is no going back, Airo.

[cap'n queasy]

xsuite wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: xsuite wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Eynon81 wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: I'm not going to attempt to judge it.

I think someone could repent and find the Lord as the life ebbed from their veins.

but....what if a believer kills themselves?

Well, I would say a professing believer might do that. And if that is the case, they may repent and find the Lord as the life ebbs away. I don't think someone who totally believed in their heart would commit suicide. The life God gives us is too precious for that. You would be wasting a second that you could be witnessing to a lost soul.

Especially if you were being tormented for your belief. I would much rather cheat the devil than cheat someone out of a chance for salvation.

That person who is tormenting you might be the one who is changed because he sees what you did. No true believer would miss an opportunity to like that to help save someone that was that lost.
Really good point there! But then to play worst case scenario that the torturer has marked himself with the mark of the beast. THen what!!

You will likely be decapitated.
actually i think that burning alive will be popular in the end times. Bummer for Christians.

Well, in the scripture it describes a government in the end times who will enforce the legal punishment of decapitation of anyone who refuses to worship the false Christ as God. And notice that John the Baptist was decapitated.

He is a typological symbol for the Church. There is more to it than just that, but that is a very general description. If you want to discuss end times possibilities more we can make a new thread.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: And depression is not a mental illness?

I would say it is more of a spiritual imbalance from my experience. Taking drugs and alcohol to cover it up does more harm than good. The two ailments depression and substance abuse are intertwined. I was once a depressed substance abuser, so I have a bit of experience in this.

If you notice 12 step programs are designed to awaken spiritual awareness in folks that have no awareness of this facet of life. These are the only programs that have any kind of a track record helping folks with these types of ailments.

[airo]

John wrote: airo wrote: And depression is not a mental illness?

Is hunger a mental illness?

Expecting that to completely go over your head.

It didn't. (You forget my religious learning's John.)

Unfortunately, mental illnesses can be either biological or completely mental.

People can be born with clinical cases of depression, just as people can be born with autism.

Cap'n: It's a lacking of something. Some times, it can be a lacking of natural chemicals in the brain. Others, it's a hole in their life, devoid of something. You can fill this hole with something. A complete faith in any specific god is often times what people choose. As you mentioned, alcohol and drugs are other choices.

Growing up in an Evangelical church and doing many, many ministries myself, i've met people from all walks of life who've cured their depression by converting.

Doing my own soul searching, and talking to people outside the Christian faith, i've found that this isn't just related to Christianity. I've met plenty of Jews and Muslims who've filled that hole, and are extremely happy people. I've also met Buddhists who have found a new path in life.

But, as i've said, that ONLY relates to cognitive depression, not chemical depression. There's plenty of people with both.

[garyd]

Technically speaking defending yourself isn't playing at being God for we are told that those hwo shed the blood man will by man have there own blood shed.

When a man breaks into your house he has passed judgement upon himself and you have the right to execute that judgement as you think best

Jesus asked "Have you any swords among you?" and whne told their were two said that should be enough.