Political Crossfire Forums

[straw man]

Fetuses are human beings too.



human:

adj.

"1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=human

A human fetus is of relating to or characteristic of humans (homo sapiens). They are not developing goats, or developing kangaroos, or developing creatures of any other species. They are developing humans (just like a 4 year old kid is also a developing human).

"4. Having the form of a human"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=human

You can see very early on the embryo takes the human form characteristics. Two eyes, ten fingers, ten toes etc. Naturally the farther along in the pregnancy, the more features there are and more apparent they are, yet these features exist LONG before the baby is born.

being:

noun

"1. The state or quality of having existence. See Synonyms at existence"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=being

The embryo is very much an existence. (unless you want to argue "how can you prove that ANYTHING exists") but forget that philosophical mumbo jumbo.

"2. a Something, such as an object, an idea, or a symbol, that exists, is thought to exist, or is represented as existing."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=being

Same thing.

"3. a A person"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=being

person:

noun

"1. A living human."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=person

As I have illustrated by definition elsewhere, the fetus is indeed living.

human:

noun

"1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens."

Fetuses are members of the homo sapien species. (albeit very tiny and less developed, they still belong to the species nonetheless.


Please note, that developmental stage, where they derive their recources, dependence on any other creatures, possession of certain organs, awareness, eye color or whatever have you are NOT criterion used in making this determination.

[straw man]

Oh and incidentally a fetus is also a baby (and a child too).

[straw man]

If anyone wants to dehumanize what is aborted to help justify it, by calling it a fetus, or an embryo or a worthless and parasitic sack of unwanted organic matter, then be my guest. Just nobody complain when others choose to refer to them by legitimate terms, even if "murdering children" doesn't have such a nice ring to it.

[Revenant]

Guess I'm pro-murdering children then :lol:

*scrambles brains*

*vacuums*

[LostSoul3412]

... But they are not alive...

Life:

Noun

"The interval of time between birth and death"

"The interval of time between one's birth and the present"

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=life

[Otacon]

LostSoul3412 wrote: ... But they are not alive...

Life:

Noun

"The interval of time between birth and death"

"The interval of time between one's birth and the present"

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=life

Hahaha, so true. The may be breathing and such, but they haven't been born yet, meaning they aren't alive.

[straw man]

FYI the definition you referenced is like when they talk about the life of somebody, did they have a fulfilling life, etc. Did you even read the example? (She led a good, long life). It has nothing to do with the living status of something.

If you read the definition for alive or living, it is having life. So to translate you are saying it means, "having the length of time between birth and death". That doesn't make any sense; therefore that was not the definition they were referring to when they define alive.

( Here is the appropriate defintion to determine the living status of a being :)

"Having life; living. See Synonyms at living."

Life:

"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."

So as you can see the fetus is very much alive.

[LostSoul3412]

straw man wrote: FYI the definition you referenced is like when they talk about the life of somebody, did they have a fulfilling life, etc. Did you even read the example? (She led a good, long life). It has nothing to do with the living status of something.

If you read the definition for alive or living, it is having life. So to translate you are saying it means, "having the length of time between birth and death". That doesn't make any sense; therefore that was not the definition they were referring to when they define alive.

( Here is the appropriate defintion to determine the living status of a being :)

"Having life; living. See Synonyms at living."

Life:

"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."

So as you can see the fetus is very much alive.

A fetus reproduces?

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: "The interval of time between one's birth and the present"
What about marsupials? They keep their young in a pouch until they are developed. Not really inside the mother. Inside or outside doesn't matter, still a human life.

[Otacon]

Well, it doesn't matter if it's alive. It's a woman's choice to decide what to do with it.

[LostSoul3412]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: "The interval of time between one's birth and the present"
What about marsupials? They keep their young in a pouch until they are developed. Not really inside the mother. Inside or outside doesn't matter, still a human life.

The key is that their young are born. Development is not the issue.

[straw man]

LostSoul3412 wrote: straw man wrote: FYI the definition you referenced is like when they talk about the life of somebody, did they have a fulfilling life, etc. Did you even read the example? (She led a good, long life). It has nothing to do with the living status of something.

If you read the definition for alive or living, it is having life. So to translate you are saying it means, "having the length of time between birth and death". That doesn't make any sense; therefore that was not the definition they were referring to when they define alive.

( Here is the appropriate defintion to determine the living status of a being :)

"Having life; living. See Synonyms at living."

Life:

"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."

So as you can see the fetus is very much alive.

A fetus reproduces?

Of course not!

Neither do sterile people, or women after menopause, or nuns etc. Are they not alive?

The definition is the property that distinguishes from being dead, manifested in function SUCH AS....reproduction. They are listing examples of what might manifest the living nature of something, and if you read the definition again you will see they weren't listing off mandatory requirements, just giving examples of some things that might designate that it is alive.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: Well, it doesn't matter if it's alive. It's a woman's choice to decide what to do with it. Thats what were debating here. All you did was state your opinion on abortion without any supporting arguements.

Quote: The key is that their young are born. Development is not the issue. Why is the key birth? I think thats the whole abortion debate. Development is the issue because pro-death people argue that these newly conceived human lives are not developed enough to deserve human rights.

[straw man]

LostSoul3412 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: "The interval of time between one's birth and the present"
What about marsupials? They keep their young in a pouch until they are developed. Not really inside the mother. Inside or outside doesn't matter, still a human life.

The key is that their young are born. Development is not the issue.

The key to YOUR definition that is.

Of course, a baby doesn't have to be a "interval of time between one's birth and the present" in order to be a life. (do you notice that doesn't even make sense? THIS definition refers to an abstract concept of time, not for application to determining the living status of something).

The baby can still qualify as being alive simply by growing and metabolizing, with no such requirement of having been born.

[straw man]

Let me explain in the simplest terms I can think of.

A fetus, is either dead, or it's alive. A dead fetus doesn't grow, move or really even do anything at all, as opposed to a living fetus, which is not inanimate, and does grow and move.

Therefore usage of the word "alive" is simply distinguishing it from being inanimate and dead. That's all I'm trying to say when I say it is alive.

[LostSoul3412]

straw man wrote: The key to YOUR definition that is.

Which is what the issue was.

[LostSoul3412]

straw man wrote: Let me explain in the simplest terms I can think of.

A fetus, is either dead, or it's alive. A dead fetus doesn't grow, move or really even do anything at all, as opposed to a living fetus, which is not inanimate, and does grow and move.

Therefore usage of the word "alive" is simply distinguishing it from being inanimate and dead. That's all I'm trying to say when I say it is alive.

And I've already agreed with that. I understand that an embryo is alive, but I do not agree that an embryo is indeed a human being. The issue is not if an embryo is alive, but whether or not it is a life. "A life", meaning human being.

[straw man]

LostSoul3412 wrote: straw man wrote: Let me explain in the simplest terms I can think of.

A fetus, is either dead, or it's alive. A dead fetus doesn't grow, move or really even do anything at all, as opposed to a living fetus, which is not inanimate, and does grow and move.

Therefore usage of the word "alive" is simply distinguishing it from being inanimate and dead. That's all I'm trying to say when I say it is alive.

And I've already agreed with that. I understand that an embryo is alive, but I do not agree that an embryo is indeed a human being. The issue is not if an embryo is alive, but whether or not it is a life. "A life", meaning human being.

The ball's in your court on this one. You can just repeat your claim over and over again, but instead why don't you tell me what's wrong with my definitions from the first post in this thread which show how a fetus IS a human being?

[straw man]

LostSoul3412 wrote: straw man wrote: The key to YOUR definition that is.

Which is what the issue was.

Yes, that is the issue with YOUR definition that you arbitrarily picked out. My definition has nothing to do with being born yet or not, so it's not an issue with what I am trying to say.

Kind of like legality may very well be an issue for talking about one form of murdering, but it wasn't an issue for the form of murdering that I was using.

[Izzibeth]

if you believe that the moment of conception makes one a human being then no amount of arguing with you is going to change your mind. if you believe that there is a point of development at which a group of developing cells forms a human being then it would be a matter of find out what point that is and then agreeing upon it. there is no amount of arguing or discussing that can be done to come up with a middle ground between someone who believes the human life begins at conception and one who believes the human life begins at the formation of the 'human being'. you are asking for someone to 'prove you wrong' on something that can not be proven wrong... it is your opinion and belief. we can not change that. if you said "no, it begins at 12 weeks because...." or "no, it begins at 8 weeks because..." then some kind of argreement could perhaps be reached. that is not the case. arguing with you about it is... probably nothing more than a waste of time.