Political Crossfire Forums

[Babylon_Horuv]

navyblue wrote: cool_chick wrote: Navyblue, I see you're new here, you have a wonderful opportunity here to ask real Muslims things about the teachings of their faith. Before I started investigating, before I started asking, I have to admit, I had many misconceptions too. I did. Blows my mind how offbase I was re: the real teachings. After 9/11, I became more interested and would talk to Muslims I knew, especially my friend and colleague, Suleman, I can ask him anything. I suggest you keep an open mind and ask away, you'll find a lot of what you heard before is not true and their religion has been hijacked by those who are the loudest, thus get their face into the camera. An average Muslim is modest. Sarcaren is a great source and a wonderful guy.

coolchick:

I've been in a university environment and around the Muslim community for some time. I have a dear Muslim friend.

In addition, my field is political sclence and my focus is foreign policy and counter-terrorism. Part of my research has revolved around the history of Islam. I suggest you not presume that Islam's critics are ignorant of Islam's history and practices and therefore need to read novels and talk to 'real' Muslims. It's presumptuous and condescending and suggests that any negative view of Islam must be rooted in stupidity and a lack of contact with Muslims. I had no 'conception' of Islam before I began studying it. 9/11 had not yet occurred when I began that study.

I'm sick of the term 'hijack' when referring to Islam's application of Islam and sharia. I find it interesting that all of the tyrannical practices of Islam aren't the 'real' Islam and 'dictators' maligned the 'real' sharia. It's like saying the 'real' fascism is a great thing when fascists aren't in charge of it.

Try reading Jihad: The Trail of Political Islam. And a host of other scholarly peer reviewed sources for an understanding of Islam, the ideology that does not change no matter how many Muslims we know that personally don't follow the letter of the Quran as it was written, or apply tyrannical sharia which in part, is based on the Quran.

The same things are true of Christianity and Judaism, if the bible were applied fully and completely a Christian society would be tyrranical and repressive, the same is true of a Jewish society which applied all the rules offered in the talmud. However the majority of Christians and Jews are pleasant, reasonable people and the societies they have created are free and open. I do not think this is true of Islamic societies and this actually suprises me as Islam has a strong tradition of political activism and political freedom. I am suprised that I do not see muslims rise up all over the middle east to throw off their tyrranical theocratic governments.

[Babylon_Horuv]

maxr wrote: cool_chick wrote:
You're racist? Wow. You and hotdog shold meet.

Do you view Christianity in the same light as Islam? Do you view Christianity as not peaceful?

How come the muslims I know (and I know quite a few, from all over the world) never evern tried, even a little bit, to convert me? How come the Muslims I know are the most gentle, peaceloving people of all the people I know? It makes no sense......what happened to them and how did they all escape their murderous teachings....to become even more gentle than others who are not Muslim who I know?

Of course I don't view Christianity in the same light of Islam.

Your reply made me laugh. No one here cares if you know some Muslims who happen to be all those things. Your own personal narrative is nothing when compared to 1400 years of history. You can't just dismiss my HISTORICAL FACTS by talking about some people you know.

Furthermore, of course American Muslims aren't going around with scimitars killing and converting people, but that doesn't mean Islam has some extremely violent tendencies and an expansionist past.

Christianity also has a violent and expansionist past. Europe was converted largely by force, Europeans used Christianity as justification for enslaving Africans because they felt they were benefited by their exposure to Christianity. However Christianity has outgrown this and I think Islam has as well as far as the islam believed in anhd followed by the majority of muslims, especcially those muslims who live in Western nations.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Showboat wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote: Muslima wrote: ALSALAM ALIKUM

well even though it is the islam section i would like to ask all non-muslims
a question

muslims you can argue but please don't try to answer

okay the question:

"WHY DO YOU ALL NON MUSLIMS HATE ISLAM? WHAT CAUSED YOU TO START HATING IT?"

please be honest as possible BUT answer in manners

We don't all hate Islam. What causes my own distaste for Islam is the fact that you seem to have no control whatsoever over your maniacs. Certainly most muslims are decent people, but a few are complete pieces of crap who want to kill a lot of people. This is true of most religions, however the Christians, Jews, Hindu's etc. Have done a far better job of keeping their maniacs under control. Meanwhile yours are going around blowing up buildings, planes, schools, etc. Plus beheading people and putting videos of it up on the internet. The only other religion i can think of that would allow its followers to do that is Satanism, and there aren't enough of them to hate. Why haven't the decent muslims repressed these maniacs?

You've made some good points. Obviously some Muslims are pieces of crap who blow things up, and you've got the nous to reconise that most are good people.

Firstly I think that because there is no structured hirachy in Islam, people just seem to "become" preachers, there's no bosses as such to kick them out, like there is in Catholicism for example. If a Catholic priest were to spout such nonsense he would be excommunicated.

Secondly, the Muslims I know are so removed from the terrorists I honestly don't believe they consider it up to them to do anything about it. I guess it's like asking why Catholics in Brazil didn't do anything about the IRA. Different situation honestly, but it's the best comparason I can think of.

Thirdly Christian crazies are probably at the worst in the US. Wasn't Tim McVeigh a member of some far right Christain white supremesist group?? But in the US there is the political stability, money, and competant police/FBI/military to deal with them. Most Islamic countries don't have such luxuries.

Fourthly, unfortunately many Islamic countries seem to get the nutters as leaders. I guess it's because nutters are more ambitious than normal people who want to just get along in life. Thus the crazies are protected by the government.

And you must remember that the majority of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims themselves. They're getting sick of them too.

I agree that it is not the place of American, or European, or Australian Muslims to stop terrorists who are from Middle Eastern Countries. However much terrorism in Europe is home grown, the people who commited the atrocities on 7/7 were native English citizens. It is the responsibility if the decent muslims who do not wish to blow up innocent English men and women to stop these people before they do things like this. The terrorists are a part of the community and it is fairly certain that there were other muslims who would not do such things who had some idea that this would happen.

More fatwas from Imam's condemning terrorism would go a long ways toward changing people's opinions of Islam. If anyone can become an imam then why don't more moderate muslims do so and use the position to condemn terrorism?

I certainly don't condemn muslims, and I am sure there are reasons why they do not do the things I see as simple solutions. Fear of what the terrorists would do is certainly part of this and I do not blame them for this fear. However it does seem to me that combatting terrorism and promoting the true image of muslims as charitable, peaceful, tolerant people would be the true will of Allah and there would be more Muslims with a holy dedication to that sort of thing at the same level that the terrorists have a holy dedication to their destruction and violence.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Hotdog wrote: What can I expect from someone whose best friends eat off the plate with their hands... ?

All cultures are equal? I don't think so.

Islam at its finest...

First, what is wrong with eating with one's hands? Secondly, i know muslims are made fun of for the whole "one hand is dirty, one ahnd is clean" mentality, but i see their point. They at least confine the wiping of their ass to one hand and do not touch food with that hand. We say "they don't have toilet paper" actually, they undoubtedly do, they most likely wash their hands afterwards as well. But they are safe in knowing that the hands which touch their food have not touched feces, we are not. Doesn't sound so silly when you really think about it does it?

[navyblue]

Babylon_Horuv wrote:

The same things are true of Christianity and Judaism, if the bible were applied fully and completely a Christian society would be tyrranical and repressive, the same is true of a Jewish society which applied all the rules offered in the talmud. However the majority of Christians and Jews are pleasant, reasonable people and the societies they have created are free and open. I do not think this is true of Islamic societies and this actually suprises me as Islam has a strong tradition of political activism and political freedom. I am suprised that I do not see muslims rise up all over the middle east to throw off their tyrranical theocratic governments.

No, I don't believe we can assert with a straight face that like Islam, Christianity and Judaism have failed to separate their political systems from their religious tenets, failed to enter modernity, and declared violence on anyone that defames their prophets. Nor can it be argued that Islam has a strong tradition of political freedom and activism. Islam's activists (those advocating secularism and political liberty) have faced consequences.

Again, the West has a deeply rooted point of reference for classical liberalism, Islam does not.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Showboat wrote: bbb Babylon_Horuv wrote: Muslima wrote: Showboat wrote: DMwsuguy wrote: Muslima wrote: nice reply Blinky

i do agree with you
but many of the non-muslims, especailly westerners, who live in the middle east do hate us muslims even though they are not being harmed or anything and are living lives they might not dream of their own countries.....

when we muslims travel to the us or european countries we should be checked thoroughly
our luggages are opened , women must remove their covers, some even make muslims remove thier shoes

i think that everybody knows that we muslims don't approve dogs, so why did an australian officer make a dog sniff my cousin? isn't it a way to show hatred and that all muslims are bad or whatever?

we do have some hatred, mainly because of the way they view us, for non muslims but we don't treat the way non muslims do......


I think most people would be unaware Muslims don't approve of dogs.

I have to take my shoes off at the airport. White, young male.

To continue the point...

It's not only Muslims who have their luggage opened, if they don't remove their covers how the hell does the immigration official know the person under there is who their passport says? in the US EVERYBODY seems to be asked to remove their shoes, in the UK it's generally if your wearing boots or an unlucky random. I know the Koran says about dogs but all the Muslims I've met don't give too hoots about dogs... they've got over it. Dogs in airports are used to detect explosives and drugs, it the best way of doing so. Do you think we should relax security measures and risk bombs and drugs because we're worried about upsetting Muslims? The safety of passengers and the prevention of drugs are a lot higher up on our priorities and understandably so.

This is what happens when rules that were written 1400 years ago meet the 21st Century. That's not a pop at Islam, it's a fact.

you are wrong in your last sentence because first of all there is no mention of dogs in the quran, and we do use dogs for protection, we don't have any mind of dogs being in airports and stuff, there are many dogs in my neighborhood and i do play with them but without touching!

it is that muslims are targted more than nonmuslims, have you seen 30 days a muslim or something similar?
you will know what i mean...

targetting people for search based on religion is prohibited in the code of conduct that security officers are meant to follow. However, I cannot be angry with them for targetting muslims, the majority of terrorist attacks on the United states have eben carried out by muslims. This does not mean the majority, or even a large minority, of muslims are terrorists, but if the majority of terrorists are muslim does it not make sense to be more watchful of muslims than others?

I get your point.... but there's been about two terrorist attacks carried out in the US by Muslims. The vast majority of terrorist attacks are by "Christians" blowing up abortion clinics or federal buildings.

And the big point is you can't always tell who's a Muslim and who's not. If you start targeting people who look like muslims for searches etc then the Islamic terrorists who dont will slip thro your net.

And Muslima, I know this is an older quote but the muslims I know don't care about touching dogs. Are you really bothered about it? Not having a go at you, but pet dogs are ok, surely? I'm not talking about strays on the street, but well kept pets. Again to me it seems like the old rules, when dogs were disease carriers, aren't always applicable today.

You make a good point. If security officers target people based on appearance they will miss clever terrorists.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Hotdog wrote: Babylon... Quote: If you had read the thread up to here you would see that she lives in a nation that does not allow Jews.

So let's hear from you and Showboat about just how much of a 'racist' and 'bigoted' society Muslima lives in... and how judging from some of her anti-Jewish comments here in these threads she herself is very much a part of this institutionalised racism...

But we won't hear this from you two hypocritical two-faced posers, will we? It might risk your cheap popularity with the Muslims here.

If you had read my posts so far you'd see that I have made several comments about her misinformation regarding jews. I see that more as religious bigotry rather than racism, but it is still foolish prejudice.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Hotdog wrote: Babylon... Quote: Only one problem with this cool chick. The muslim governments teach that the Jews are destroying society and need to be exterminated.

Oops! Stepped in one there, son. :lol:

In one fell swoop you've just off-sided 1.3 billion Muslims who would now like to call a death-fatwa upon your head for tarnishing the good name of Islam.

Nah, I'm not important enough. PLus you are far more anti-islamic than I am, so I'm sure they'll kill you first, when you suddenly stop posting on here then maybe I'll get worried.

[Babylon_Horuv]

Muslima wrote: Babylon....

I never hated the jews, I always hated Israel's government, and to be integrate, no jew posted something against Islam except things that concern them, but when I read the books about jews by Dr. A. Rohling(sp.) and Father A.B.Branetis (sp.), I just couldn't be my normal self when they come in my mind, I still don't hate them, but whenevr I come into contact with them I keep remembering what I read, which makes me nervous. I am okay with the jews on the forum, I don't feel that they inferior or anything.

Our education doesn't teach us that jews are non-humans, they do teach us that the jews in israel have occupied the lands and the history of it, they teach us what the quran says about them, and their dream of the big country from the Nile to Al-Forat.

9/11.....I said I have no proof, but why did the jews on that day weren't at work? I am sure it is al-Qaeda who did it, but how did they do it with all the high=tech security in the US?

It is well known that every actor or atress should do something to reach their goals, what is better for a producer than sex? Islamic countries don't ban movies, unless it contains high portion of porn.

Muslims treat jews as they used to treat them, even the zionists ones, a good example is the muslims and jews living together around the world. Arabs in israel are considered second class citiezens and if they are treating them well, they have to since they have occupied their lands!

I do disagree with the actions of the zionists in Isreal, however there have been Jews in that land for as long as there have been Muslims. In my opinion the isrealis who did not go to work on 9/11 did so because their intelligence service, the mossad, knew what was going to happen. I also believe the mossad tried to warn the US government but the US government did not listen. As to how Al-Queda managed what they did despite the sophistication of the US defense apparatus, I have no idea. Although it is certainly possible that there was some collusion from the US government, it could also have been sheer incompentence, in either case this is not the fault of isreal, a relatively weak ally of the US who is no more capable of successfully attacking the twin towers than a terrorist group would be. Isreal treats the palestinians far better than Western Culture traditionally treats people in a land which has been invaded, look at the American Indian or the Australian Aborigine, so it is doubtful that the fact that they occupied palestinian land is any reason as to why the treat them decently. The education in the country in which you live may not teach that Jews are not humans, however in Saudi Arabia they do in fact teach that. Muslims cannot possibly be treating jews as they have always treated them if jews are forbidden in your country. Your country, at least, is treating jews quite differently.

[Babylon_Horuv]

navyblue wrote: Babylon_Horuv wrote:

The same things are true of Christianity and Judaism, if the bible were applied fully and completely a Christian society would be tyrranical and repressive, the same is true of a Jewish society which applied all the rules offered in the talmud. However the majority of Christians and Jews are pleasant, reasonable people and the societies they have created are free and open. I do not think this is true of Islamic societies and this actually suprises me as Islam has a strong tradition of political activism and political freedom. I am suprised that I do not see muslims rise up all over the middle east to throw off their tyrranical theocratic governments.

No, I don't believe we can assert with a straight face that like Islam, Christianity and Judaism have failed to separate their political systems from their religious tenets, failed to enter modernity, and declared violence on anyone that defames their prophets. Nor can it be argued that Islam has a strong tradition of political freedom and activism. Islam's activists (those advocating secularism and political liberty) have faced consequences.

Again, the West has a deeply rooted point of reference for classical liberalism, Islam does not.

You are looking only at recent history. In the middle ages the Islamic world was far more free politically than the Christian world, they were also more scientifically advanced. Certainly there government was not secular, and secularism may not have been tolerated at that point, but religious freedom was greater there than in Europe as many different varieties of ISlam were allowed to flourish without persecution while Europe was engagin in the Inquisition to root out Christianity's heretics. That is where the islamic tradition of political freedom and activism springs from and that makes it older than that of Christianity. Certainly it is not as apparent now, but it is still a tradition that I would be suprised not to see reassert itself at some point. Classical Liberalism is not the only form of political freedom.

[Muslima]

Robin Hood wrote: Quote: Muslims treat jews as they used to treat them, even the zionists ones, a good example is the muslims and jews living together around the world. Arabs in israel are considered second class citiezens and if they are treating them well, they have to since they have occupied their lands!

Arab Israelis have identicial legal rights to Jewish ones. There is some societal discrimination particularly flaring up when missiles start landing on Israeli homes, but one can't even compare it to say....Saudi Arabia...where Jews are banned....or the fact that the Jews of the Middle East were often as not chased out of their host countries like the Iraqi Farhud. The only place they could run was to Israel.

Jews were kicked out from europe too!

[Muslima]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Hotdog wrote: Showboat... Quote: For F**K** sake. She doesn't use dogs as pets, so what?

You haven't been paying attention again. In an earlier post Muslima made the statement that Muslims are religiously obliged not to treat dogs as pets because the Prophet Muhammad deemed them to be 'unclean'.

Okay? There are millions of her fellow-Muslims world-wide who for religious reasons feel no affectionate empathy with dogs.

Muslima was not just talking for herself when she very carefully made the point that dogs are to be tolerated on a Muslim's property only if they serve a useful purpose such as for security.

Please try to keep up, Showboat. I'm growing tired of having to wet-nurse you through these simple points, one by one.

As I understand this question of dogs & Islam, it has been said that dogs are not permitted inside one's household because Angels will not enter your home if a dog is present.
I'm uncertain if that includes Jinn too.

That's right, angels don't enter if jinns are inside.

[navyblue]

Babylon_Horuv wrote:
You are looking only at recent history. In the middle ages the Islamic world was far more free politically than the Christian world, they were also more scientifically advanced. Certainly there government was not secular, and secularism may not have been tolerated at that point, but religious freedom was greater there than in Europe as many different varieties of ISlam were allowed to flourish without persecution while Europe was engagin in the Inquisition to root out Christianity's heretics. That is where the islamic tradition of political freedom and activism springs from and that makes it older than that of Christianity. Certainly it is not as apparent now, but it is still a tradition that I would be suprised not to see reassert itself at some point. Classical Liberalism is not the only form of political freedom.

Can you discuss Islam's history of political freedom in more detail, and explain what other forms of 'political freedom' besides individual liberty are worth discussing? Classical liberalism is the philosophy of individual sovereignty that by nature, precedes the state and any of its mandates. Is there another form of 'political liberty' besides this? :shock:

I think you might want to re-visit Islam's history or scientific advancement.

[programmusic]

Babylon_Horuv wrote:
I do disagree with the actions of the zionists in Isreal, however there have been Jews in that land for as long as there have been Muslims. In my opinion the isrealis who did not go to work on 9/11 did so because their intelligence service, the mossad, knew what was going to happen. I also believe the mossad tried to warn the US government but the US government did not listen.

Holy **** dude, that never happened. 15% of the people who died were jewish.

[navyblue]

Jewish Casualties on 9/11

[elephas]

Muslima wrote: i think that everybody knows that we muslims don't approve dogs

It is a big controversy but opinions differ, even in the pre-Islamic tribal traditions. Isn't "قلب الكلب" (The Heart of a Dog) the best compliment for a man?

You may want to read this:

http://www.islamicconcern.com/dogs.asp

[Muslima]

here we go again, Blocked Site!

[Hotdog]

Muslima wrote: here we go again, Blocked Site!

No worries! We'll soon have it unblocked!

[tsunamicin]

Muslima wrote: nice reply Blinky

i do agree with you
but many of the non-muslims, especailly westerners, who live in the middle east do hate us muslims even though they are not being harmed or anything and are living lives they might not dream of their own countries.....

when we muslims travel to the us or european countries we should be checked thoroughly
our luggages are opened , women must remove their covers, some even make muslims remove thier shoes

i think that everybody knows that we muslims don't approve dogs, so why did an australian officer make a dog sniff my cousin? isn't it a way to show hatred and that all muslims are bad or whatever?

we do have some hatred, mainly because of the way they view us, for non muslims but we don't treat the way non muslims do......

hey its only common sense to be wary of hornets. you cant exactly say nonmuslims dont have cause for suspicion.

[cool_chick]

Muslima wrote: nice reply Blinky

i do agree with you
but many of the non-muslims, especailly westerners, who live in the middle east do hate us muslims even though they are not being harmed or anything and are living lives they might not dream of their own countries.....

when we muslims travel to the us or european countries we should be checked thoroughly
our luggages are opened , women must remove their covers, some even make muslims remove thier shoes

i think that everybody knows that we muslims don't approve dogs, so why did an australian officer make a dog sniff my cousin? isn't it a way to show hatred and that all muslims are bad or whatever?

we do have some hatred, mainly because of the way they view us, for non muslims but we don't treat the way non muslims do......

Muslima, we are treated to the same behavior. When I travel, I have to remove my shoes, we are often scanned with a wand, I could not wear any sort of hat through a scanning area, and dogs are a common way of life in security measures. Dogs are a great security measure as can smell drugs and bombs. Dogs are used on all forms of public transportation here. I'm a green eyed, blonde girl, I am treated exactly the same way you describe.

Muslima, these things are not because you are Muslim, these things are for all in the interest of security only. Since dogs have better noses than other animals, they are used for these kinds of tasks....and have been used for these things for as long as I can remember (which is a long time LOL).....they are not used because Muslims don't like them.