Political Crossfire Forums

[islandhopper]

Muslima wrote: Robin Hood wrote: Quote: because many non muslims hate, sorry for repeating this word, muslims just because they are muslims

I don't think I know anyone who hates Muslims....on the other hand I do know many people who hate authoritarians. The two have been twisted into the same thing in the minds of many Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Twisted by actions like calling for the deaths of cartoonists, 'apostates', hanging homosexuals, and demanding that pop singers be punished. Unless the two strands of thought are seperated, and since they were tied together by nominal Muslims they have to be untied by Muslims, then Islam will be effectively dead by the turn of the next century.



islam WILL NOT be effectively dead till the day of judgement

People have answered your question (original post); so what have you learned so far?

[Muslima]

hmmm....nice question!

well i have learned that islam is not a source of hate for many people around the world.....but i really do wish if these people and others try to understand the concept if islam and respect it so they do not change their minds about it in the future......i also wish if they accept us as who we are the same way as we are accepting you as who you are!

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote: islam WILL NOT be effectively dead till the day of judgement

I beg to differ. The world is becoming more secular, and atheism/agnosticisim is becoming more common. While Islam may last a bit longer due to the fact that the Middle-East and Africa are pretty stagnant as far as social and technological advancement are concerned, religion is slowly disappearing.

[Robin Hood]

Here is an article written by someone born a Muslim, that might be very relevant to this topic - again the language is a little vitriolic but the sentiment within is not without value.

The Roots of Muslim paranoia

Ohmyrus
2006/04/12

When the twin towers came crashing down, many Muslims believed that it was the work of Mossad or the CIA and that Jews were absent that day. During the Asian Financial Crisis, Dr Mahathir Mohammed, then Prime Minister of Malaysia told his people that it was the Jews that were behind it. Nigerian mothers (who are Muslims) refused to allow their children to be vaccinated because they believed that the Americans were trying to harm them with contaminated vaccine. The cartoon, Tom & Jerry was invented by the Jews because people equated them to rats and they want to change the image of rats into something cute.

All these conspiracy theories are crazy. Yet millions of Muslims believe them. We tend to be mildly amused and ignore them without asking why they find it easy to believe these conspiracy theories which we know to be absurd. Yet a close inquiry into this will yield a mother lode of information into the workings and the world view of Muslim minds. So why then do so many Muslims believe absurd theories?

Firstly, Islam encourages mistrust of the infidel. Here are some Koranic verses concerning what Islam says about unbelievers (1, 2 ):

Koran 3:118
O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.

Koran 4:144
O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?

(2)Koran 5:51
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

From this it can be seen that infidels (i.e. unbelievers) are out to do the Muslim in. The infidels hate Muslims and Muslims are discouraged from befriending them.

It says so in the Koran. So it must be true. If from young, you have this sort of attitude towards non-Muslims, then you are going to find conspiracy theories about infidels plotting the destruction of Muslims to be believable. No wonder they become paranoid.

Secondly, Islam has given Muslims an over-inflated self image that cannot square with reality. In the Muslim world-view, Islam is the perfect religion and Muslims are therefore the best nation charged with leading the world. Take a look at this verse from the Koran (3):

Koran 3:110
You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the followers of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors.

I will talk more about this later. While Muslims are supposed to be the best, it of course follows that non-Muslims are less than best. Koran 9:28 reads (4):

O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

This view is echoed by Ayatollah Sistani whom the US hopes (fat hope) will be a moderate force in Iraq . See his website (5). According to Ayatollah Sistani, kafirs (another name for unbelievers) are dirty and in the same category with urine and feces.

But am I cherry-picking some verses from the Koran just to prove my point? Do Muslims really teach their young to despise and distrust the infidels? Wafa Sultan grew up in Syria . This is what she said (6):


“Until I came to United States I used to believe that Jewish people are not human creatures,” she says. “Unfortunately this is the way I was brought up, to believe that Jews don’t have our human features, they don’t have our human voices.”

In the first week she was in the United States she and her husband went to a shoe shop in Hollywood . Her husband asked the clerk where he was from and when he said that he was an Israeli Jew, “you can’t believe what I did”, she says. “I ran away without shoes, barefoot. My husband followed me. He said, ‘How stupid you are.’ But I said, ‘I cannot tolerate him.’ I was scared to death because he was from Israel ; I reacted in a very bad, negative way, because of the way I had been raised, for the past 30 years of my life.”

She was so afraid of the Jew that she ran away without her shoes on! This is the kind of upbringing that Muslim kids in that part of the world are getting from their parents and teachers.

Coming back to the issue of Muslim superiority, you can see that this notion is also reflected in the Islamic Human Rights Declaration (7). This is in stark contrast with the Universal Declaration of Human right which assumes that all cultures and religions are equal. The first paragraph of the Islamic Human rights declaration reads:

“Reaffirming the civilizing and historical role of the Islamic Ummah which God made the best nation that has given mankind a universal and well-balanced civilization in which harmony is established between this life and the hereafter and knowledge is combined with faith; and the role that this Ummah should play to guide a humanity confused by competing trends and ideologies and to provide solutions to the chronic problems of this materialistic civilization.”
What a pompous statement. Muslims want to see themselves as the best nation whose role is to guide a supposedly confused humanity that is plagued with problems and lead them to the wonderful Islamic civilization. But unfortunately for Muslims, the hype cannot live up with reality.

In truth, Muslims are amongst the poorest, most backwards people on the earth. This is acknowledged by Pakistan 's President Pervez Musharraf. (5)Far from solving humanity's problems, Muslims are themselves mired in problems and often living in dysfunctional societies. Not only are they mired in their problems but they also create problems for others.

Falling behind supposedly inferior infidels has created a deep sense of humiliation. This is worsened by the fact that they have an idealized picture of their own past when Islam was once a superpower with an empire stretching from Spain to India . European school children are taught to be ashamed of their countries' imperialistic past. But Muslim kids in the Middle East at least are taught of the conquests of the Arab armies as something more than glorious. The conquests are also seen as part of Allah's will.

Muslims are thus like the impoverished noble families who are unable to adapt to changed circumstances and are constantly reminding themselves of past glories. The inability to achieve the “top dog” position which Muslims believe they deserve leads to humiliation. A feeling of humiliation leads to rage against the infidel whom they were taught to despise and distrust.

It makes even the most ridiculous conspiracy theories believable. Nobody wants to believe that failures are their own fault. It must be the work of the no-good filthy infidels (especially Jews) whom the Koran says hate and out to ruin Muslims. People with low self-esteem often blame others for their failures. Rather than blame their own incompetence, paranoid people shift the blame on some enemy.

Minds filled with humiliation, hate, anger and distrust are thus the roots of Muslim paranoia. These roots find rich nourishment on Islamic soil.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Ohmyrus60412.htm

[islandhopper]

Something interesting on NPR this morning; in Saudi, schools have been teaching children that Jews and Christians are pigs (non-humans) and deserve no respect from Muslims. There is a culture of hate that seems to be pervasive among Muslims and this is an example. So I think I am finally getting this; Muslims follow the rules of Islam and learn to treat other humans with respect, but only if they are Muslims. All others are not worthy. From this grows hatred and violence. I am finding it very difficult to muster up any respect for your religion, the more I learn about it.

[MALIK]

islandhopper wrote: Something interesting on NPR this morning; in Saudi, schools have been teaching children that Jews and Christians are pigs (non-humans) and deserve no respect from Muslims. There is a culture of hate that seems to be pervasive among Muslims and this is an example. So I think I am finally getting this; Muslims follow the rules of Islam and learn to treat other humans with respect, but only if they are Muslims. All others are not worthy. From this grows hatred and violence. I am finding it very difficult to muster up any respect for your religion, the more I learn about it.

I read that too.

But do you think what Saudi government doing is part of Islam ? If thats what you think, I'd agree that it would be difficult to have any respect for Islam.

But if you think thats not part of Islam, but rather what Wahabis say, than I can have respect for Islam, but cant for the Wahabis. :wink:

By the way, below is a quote from the article, I think its enough to show what Wahhabis do isnt part of Islam;

"...an ideology of hatred toward Christians and Jews and Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine..."

[mcmlv]

The deflecting of blame, as a 'non-refelction of Islam', although, correct in a narrow scope, does not take away from the fact the most of the 'bad' reputation, from which persons as yourself and others of progressive mindset, are trying to set yourselves apart, are in vast majority coming from the ME Arab world, the place where Islam was born. Further more, as it was said before, considering that there are well over a billion Muslims in the world, how is it then that they do not raise to defend their true faith?

[MALIK]

mcmlv wrote: The deflecting of blame, as a 'non-refelction of Islam', although, correct in a narrow scope, does not take away from the fact the most of the 'bad' reputation, from which persons as yourself and others of progressive mindset, are trying to set yourselves apart, are in vast majority coming from the ME Arab world, the place where Islam was born. Further more, as it was said before, considering that there are well over a billion Muslims in the world, how is it then that they do not raise to defend their true faith?

What should we do to change the Wahhabis ? There isnt anything I can do. They think theirs is the right belief. If you refuse/oppose it, you wont be in good situation. Kings/Dictators have full autocratic powers in ME. Those kings that the western media shows as "Muslim" kill/imprison the Muslim population as well, not only religious minorities.

Maybe the US should stop supporting S.Arabia? I think what the US claimed in Iraq and what they claim for Iran/Syria about "oppressed freedoms" is happening in large scale in S.A.

[mcmlv]

Several times in the history of man, Muslims took up arms and gave their lives for any number of causes, surely defending their true faith is not less worthy.

[MALIK]

mcmlv wrote: Several times in the history of man, Muslims took up arms and gave their lives for any number of causes, surely defending their true faith is not less worthy.

We arent that powerful anymore unfortunately. We cant even solve the internal problems... :(

[Muslima]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote: islam WILL NOT be effectively dead till the day of judgement

I beg to differ. The world is becoming more secular, and atheism/agnosticisim is becoming more common. While Islam may last a bit longer due to the fact that the Middle-East and Africa are pretty stagnant as far as social and technological advancement are concerned, religion is slowly disappearing.

in your culture............

[Muslima]

islandhopper wrote: Something interesting on NPR this morning; in Saudi, schools have been teaching children that Jews and Christians are pigs (non-humans) and deserve no respect from Muslims. There is a culture of hate that seems to be pervasive among Muslims and this is an example. So I think I am finally getting this; Muslims follow the rules of Islam and learn to treat other humans with respect, but only if they are Muslims. All others are not worthy. From this grows hatred and violence. I am finding it very difficult to muster up any respect for your religion, the more I learn about it.

even though the school you are talking could have some mentaly sick teachers, the jews also teach their children the same thing.....

something for you to know, we muslims are forbiden to curse non muslims!

[Muslima]

mcmlv wrote: The deflecting of blame, as a 'non-refelction of Islam', although, correct in a narrow scope, does not take away from the fact the most of the 'bad' reputation, from which persons as yourself and others of progressive mindset, are trying to set yourselves apart, are in vast majority coming from the ME Arab world, the place where Islam was born. Further more, as it was said before, considering that there are well over a billion Muslims in the world, how is it then that they do not raise to defend their true faith?

because they dont have the gut to do so, besides the lack of other things

[islandhopper]

Muslima wrote: islandhopper wrote: Something interesting on NPR this morning; in Saudi, schools have been teaching children that Jews and Christians are pigs (non-humans) and deserve no respect from Muslims. There is a culture of hate that seems to be pervasive among Muslims and this is an example. So I think I am finally getting this; Muslims follow the rules of Islam and learn to treat other humans with respect, but only if they are Muslims. All others are not worthy. From this grows hatred and violence. I am finding it very difficult to muster up any respect for your religion, the more I learn about it.

even though the school you are talking could have some mentaly sick teachers, the jews also teach their children the same thing.....

something for you to know, we muslims are forbiden to curse non muslims!

Wahhabism prevails in Saudi Arabia. This is not just one school, it is not just a few mentally sick teachers. It is pervasive in the public schools and the textbooks issued to this schools by the state. Wahhabism dominates the public schools. Is it any wonder that the 9/11 terrorists were all Saudis?

[Muslima]

no, no wonder......but as i said it is the same with jew so why only blame the wahabies even though i dont support them

[islandhopper]

Muslima wrote: no, no wonder......but as i said it is the same with jew so why only blame the wahabies even though i dont support them

Take it or leave it...

Textbooks in the Middle East
by Diane Ravitch
October 5, 2005
printable pdf

When governments take responsibility for publishing school textbooks, such books invariably reflect what the leaders of that society want children to believe. Nowhere is this issue more crucial than in the Middle East, where national and religious passions are a constant threat to world peace. In 1998, the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace (CMIP) was established to review the content of school textbooks in the region and to examine whether the books were encouraging the attitudes of mutual tolerance necessary for future peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors.

CMIP has reviewed textbooks prepared by the governments of Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Egypt. Its criteria for analysis are twofold: First, do the texts present the images of other peoples and religions as equals or are they shown in a prejudiced way? Second, do the textbooks foster peace? CMIP also employs criteria developed by UNESCO, including, Do the textbooks include accurate data? Are illustrations, maps, and graphs accurate and up to date? Are the achievements of others recognized? Are political disputes presented objectively? Are ideals of freedom, dignity, and fraternity advocated?

CMIP found that the Israeli textbooks actively promote education for reconciliation, tolerance, and peace. They present Islam in a "positive light," with factual explanations of its doctrines. They describe the Palestinian cause as a national movement. They do not promote hatred or violence toward Arabs. Literature books for Israeli students include selections by Palestinian and other Arab authors. Some textbooks were so evenhanded that Israeli critics accused the Ministry of Education of endorsing "self-hatred."

The textbooks published by Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and the Palestinian Authority, however, use negative stereotypes to portray Jews. Their maps of the region do not include any mention of Israel; its territory is usually described as "Palestine." The Arab textbooks present Jews as treacherous usurpers throughout history, with no rightful claim to nationhood. They describe the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an authentic historical document.

The Saudi textbooks, analyzed in 2003, expressed hostility and prejudice against not only Jews but Christians and the West. The texts teach that Islam is the only true religion and that Jews and Christians are infidels. The Western world is depicted as the source of the misfortunes of the Muslim world, from the Crusades to imperialism to the establishment of Israel. Present-day Western cultural and intellectual influence, including Western democracy, is treated as pernicious. Saudi students are taught that the West is a decaying society that is on its way to extinction because of its lack of spirituality, as well as the prevalence of such things as adultery, sodomy, suicide, and alcoholism. The texts reject terrorism but warmly praise war, jihad, and martyrdom.

If a lasting peace depends not just on "charters and covenants" but on "the hearts and minds of the people," as John F. Kennedy said, then the attitudes taught by the state to its young people are no less important than the words uttered by diplomats. The reports of CMIP can be found at www.edume.org.

[Muslima]

say whatever you want, i still think that it is unfair to blame the wahabies and leave the jew do whatever they want without having anybody nagging on them..........

[mendosan]

islandhopper has just shown that Israeli textbooks are not hostile to Islam or the Palestinians, so in what sense are the "Jew" doing anything similar?

[Robin Hood]

Muslima wrote: say whatever you want, i still think that it is unfair to blame the wahabies and leave the jew do whatever they want without having anybody nagging on them..........

Why do you use a singular word to represent all Jews, yet justly complain when people generalize too much across your own religion?

[pedagogue]

Muslima wrote: ALSALAM ALIKUM

well even though it is the islam section i would like to ask all non-muslims
a question

muslims you can argue but please don't try to answer

okay the question:

"WHY DO YOU ALL NON MUSLIMS HATE ISLAM? WHAT CAUSED YOU TO START HATING IT?"

please be honest as possible BUT answer in manners
As a Christian, wrong question, but allow me to answer that — Islam's arrogance! (for non-religious reasons, I view hatred as ultimately self-destructive — and there are plenty of biological examples to back me up on this, so I choose not to hate)

Look at any point on the globe where Muslims make up a significant portion of a local population and you'll find religious persecution perpetrated by Muslims threatening to rip that locality apart in civil war — [Ethnic violence threatens to split tiny Asian nation—Deployment of peacekeepers fails to quell the unrest]. These rioters are former policemen, all Muslim, who not only turned a blind eye to the Muslims looting, killing and burning of Christians, but also took part in those raids a couple of years ago. And now they want their jobs back? At best, they should be behind bars.

Muslims, you claim your religion is a "religion of peace," while all evidence tends to point toward Islam being a "religion of pieces;" as in taking this piece of real estate and that piece of real estate while running off the inhabitants of said real estate — such as we see today in Chad and The Philipines, and have historically seen in places as wide ranging as India, the southern states of the former Soviet Union, Eastern Europe and Spain, and China. In those countries where Muslims make up a significant portion of a local population, all evidence points toward Muslims wantonly becoming ungovernable, resorting to terrorism, murder, and every imaginable evil in their quest to change that form of government from a secular democracy to a Muslim theocracy. And in those states in which Muslims have succeeded in turning that state's government into one based upon Islam, that state has systematically demonstrated itself to be a failed state, incapable of lifting its population out of poverty, except in those rare instances where that state can sell crude oil, the proceeds from which these regimes then use to export terrorism and more "religion of pieces." Before Islam can expect to be accepted as a mainstream religion, I think Muslims need to do a lot of introspection and soul searching to ascertain just exactly what it is that Islam represents.

Because the results, both historically and contemporarily can only be viewed as satanic. I've asked the question before, and I'll ask it once again, while Muslim Arabs are slaughtering Muslim Blacks in Africa, where is the Red Crescent? You see. there's a fine line between being a cultist and being a believer. And given the balance of the facts, I have to view Islam as a cult — and just so that there can be no confusion, the meaning that I use for cult is the bastardization of religion.