Political Crossfire Forums

EconomicHitman · Joined: 11 May 2006 Posts: 17

if you were in a burning building and there was a baby and a plate of stem cells and you could only take one which one would you take.

For all of you out there that say using stem cells is killing people think of this situation.

Stem cells can be used to heal people and should not be wasted just ebcause people think that it's killing.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

only human fetuses are human ;)

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

so are embryos.

Revenant · Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 17927 Location: Bliss

Are fetuses human?

Not after the drill and vacuum exercise

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :lol:

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

Plodder wrote: so are embryos.

So? Answer the question.

Politics Mstr · Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 48 Location: California

Certainly they are not yet independent and fully grown, but they are the oppurtunity for something great. Maybe they don't quite feel the pain of abortion, but what pro-choice members don't understand is that life is more than purely what we feel!

You are not hurting the baby personally, you are killing what the baby can live to be. You are killing an aspect of society. The next Einstein or Mozart. Abortion is silently murdering what would normally become a healthy, prosperous 100 year old man. Within those years are great experiences: growing up, raising a family, helping others. Those years are what contribute to the growth and expansion of our world.

Think beyond what you previously thought, pro-choicers. There's much more to it than you think. Many people are starting to figure this out. It's something that you don't automatically understand. The beauty of life takes experience to appreciate.

So, please. Be grateful for life. Be grateful that you are an abortion survivor and so are the other great people in society. You have no power to be tampering with a thing so wonderful.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

[quote="Politics Mstr"]but what pro-choice members don't understand is that life is more than purely what we feel! Why?

Quote: You are not hurting the baby personally, there is no baby.

Quote: you are killing what the baby can live to be. other than there still not being a baby, masturbating or not having sex is also killing off the potential.

Quote: You are killing an aspect of society. The next Einstein or Mozart. Or Mcveigh, dahmer or Stalin.

Quote: Abortion is silently murdering false. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the illegal killing of a person.

Quote: what would normally become a healthy, prosperous 100 year old man. Prove it.

Quote: Within those years are great experiences: growing up, raising a family, helping others. Those years are what contribute to the growth and expansion of our world. Unless he/she blows up A federal building instead.

Quote: Think beyond what you previously thought, pro-choicers. There's much more to it than you think. Many people are starting to figure this out. It's something that you don't automatically understand. The beauty of life takes experience to appreciate. Any other irrelevant babble you want to present?

Quote: So, please. Be grateful for life. Be grateful that you are an abortion survivor and so are the other great people in society. You have no power to be tampering with a thing so wonderful. The woman has the power to walk into a medical clinic and avail herself of its services, your false claim none withstanding.

Tony Clifton · Joined: 11 May 2006 Posts: 54

Of course a human fetus is human - the fetus of a cat or dog would be described as their grown species as well.

For the stem cell argument. I am for stem cell research although I am against abortion on demand. I don't totally understand stem cell research & am really not that interested in learning about it. If it helps create cures for disease then I am all for it. However, when it comes to the abortion debate: an abortion is act of of killing/murder. One must actively kill/stop the growth of life (of) a fetus/unborn child.

...as for borting to get stem cells for research - I just don't know...my lack of knowledge doesn't allow me to make any sort of judgement.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Tony Clifton wrote: ...as for borting to get stem cells for research - I just don't know...my lack of knowledge doesn't allow me to make any sort of judgement. Stem cells don't come from abortions. Stem cells are grown in labs.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8951

Politics Mstr wrote: Certainly they are not yet independent and fully grown, but they are the oppurtunity for something great. Maybe they don't quite feel the pain of abortion, but what pro-choice members don't understand is that life is more than purely what we feel!

Life is our sentience, our awareness, and our emotions. I have not made any claims that life is solely dependent on the ability to feel pain, but I have seen many "Pro-Lifers" argue that since an embryo looks human, it is human. Life is more than what we look like. Since an embryo is not yet independent (as you yourself have stated), it is not an independent life. The oppurtunity to become something great is equal to become something horrible, so speculation of the future holds no ground.

Politics Mstr wrote: You are not hurting the baby personally, you are killing what the baby can live to be. You are killing an aspect of society. The next Einstein or Mozart. Abortion is silently murdering what would normally become a healthy, prosperous 100 year old man. Within those years are great experiences: growing up, raising a family, helping others. Those years are what contribute to the growth and expansion of our world.

I could just as easily say that the next Hitler has also been aborted. I have said many times, speculation of the future is no grounds for argument.

Politics Mstr wrote: Think beyond what you previously thought, pro-choicers. There's much more to it than you think. Many people are starting to figure this out. It's something that you don't automatically understand. The beauty of life takes experience to appreciate.

The beauty of life takes sentience to exist. Think beyond what you previously though, and realize your own intellect though your own fallacies.

Politics Mstr wrote: So, please. Be grateful for life. Be grateful that you are an abortion survivor and so are the other great people in society. You have no power to be tampering with a thing so wonderful.

My mother never attempted an abortion on me, so I am not an "abortion survivor". I am the result of my mother and father choosing to have a child, just as many other Americans choose.

I have been debating abortion here for months, whereas you have only just begun. I look forward to many opportunities to challenge you, and I warn you now of your own arrogance. Since this is our first engagement, I will grant you that respect. In the future, do not look for such advice.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8951

Tony Clifton wrote: Of course a human fetus is human - the fetus of a cat or dog would be described as their grown species as well.

For the stem cell argument. I am for stem cell research although I am against abortion on demand. I don't totally understand stem cell research & am really not that interested in learning about it. If it helps create cures for disease then I am all for it. However, when it comes to the abortion debate: an abortion is act of of killing/murder. One must actively kill/stop the growth of life (of) a fetus/unborn child.

...as for borting to get stem cells for research - I just don't know...my lack of knowledge doesn't allow me to make any sort of judgement.

I respect your acceptance of your own lack of knowledge. Such acknowledgment is a sign of true genius. I look forward to seeing you on the battlefield.

Politics Mstr · Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 48 Location: California

You have no right to pronounce a child's future and therefore cannot merely assume that the hundreds of thousands of lives ruined through abortion were destined to end in failure.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8951

Politics Mstr wrote: You have no right to pronounce a child's future and therefore cannot merely assume that the hundreds of thousands of lives ruined through abortion were destined to end in failure.

Just as you cannot assume that their lives would end in greatness. Which is why this line of argument is void.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

LostSoul3412 wrote: Politics Mstr wrote: You have no right to pronounce a child's future and therefore cannot merely assume that the hundreds of thousands of lives ruined through abortion were destined to end in failure.

Just as you cannot assume that their lives would end in greatness. Which is why this line of argument is void. Actually what he said made your argument void, not the other way around. Hes saying you have no right to pronounce a childs future. You counter it with saying he cant decide the childs future will be positive. Its a response that doesnt make any sense. He just said the exact same thing, about both sides of the coin. Which is completely true. It states you can not justify abortion by pointing out how miserable the persons life might be, the truth is you dont know and youre not in a position to judge.

Edited to further expand on my opinion, at which point the poster below me posted something not aware of my expanded response.

tlynn1974 · Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 5

AllAmericanMan wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Politics Mstr wrote: You have no right to pronounce a child's future and therefore cannot merely assume that the hundreds of thousands of lives ruined through abortion were destined to end in failure.

Just as you cannot assume that their lives would end in greatness. Which is why this line of argument is void. Actually what he said made your argument void, not the other way around.

I don't see how. A certain percentage of EVERY group will end up on the lower and upper echelon of society. This includes aborted fetuses. Some of those fetuses would have ended up being child molesters and murderers just as some would have ended up being teachers and social workers.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

tlynn1974 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Politics Mstr wrote: You have no right to pronounce a child's future and therefore cannot merely assume that the hundreds of thousands of lives ruined through abortion were destined to end in failure.

Just as you cannot assume that their lives would end in greatness. Which is why this line of argument is void. Actually what he said made your argument void, not the other way around.

I don't see how. A certain percentage of EVERY group will end up on the lower and upper echelon of society. This includes aborted fetuses. Some of those fetuses would have ended up being child molesters and murderers just as some would have ended up being teachers and social workers.

A higher percentage of children who would have been aborted would wind up in the lower echelons. Study after study has shown that an unwanted child has a much lower chance at success than one who was wanted.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: an unwanted child has a much lower chance at success A chance is not absolute. Even if it was absolute, it would not justify terminating the life because of the quality of life that child may or may not have.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: an unwanted child has a much lower chance at success A chance is not absolute. Even if it was absolute, it would not justify terminating the life because of the quality of life that child may or may not have.

Didn't say it does, just stating the facts.

The solution is to limit the conception of unwanted children.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8951

AllAmericanMan wrote: Actually what he said made your argument void, not the other way around. Hes saying you have no right to pronounce a childs future. You counter it with saying he cant decide the childs future will be positive. Its a response that doesnt make any sense. He just said the exact same thing, about both sides of the coin. Which is completely true. It states you can not justify abortion by pointing out how miserable the persons life might be, the truth is you dont know and youre not in a position to judge.

Edited to further expand on my opinion, at which point the poster below me posted something not aware of my expanded response.

Incorrect.

The argument presented was that "abortion is destroying all of the good that could have come into society", and I responded by say that I could just as easily speculate, and that the argument of speculation is flawed from both sides, which is why it cannot be used in a debate.

I recognize that I have no connection to another's life, and I am not attempting to claim their future, I am attempting to prevent others from doing so. I quote directly from my post: speculation of the future is no grounds for argument.

I understand that I am in no position judge, just as you aren't in a position to judge what a potential mother should do when faced with the choice of abortion.

Politics Mstr · Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 48 Location: California

LostSoul3412 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: Actually what he said made your argument void, not the other way around. Hes saying you have no right to pronounce a childs future. You counter it with saying he cant decide the childs future will be positive. Its a response that doesnt make any sense. He just said the exact same thing, about both sides of the coin. Which is completely true. It states you can not justify abortion by pointing out how miserable the persons life might be, the truth is you dont know and youre not in a position to judge.

Edited to further expand on my opinion, at which point the poster below me posted something not aware of my expanded response.

Incorrect.

The argument presented was that "abortion is destroying all of the good that could have come into society", and I responded by say that I could just as easily speculate, and that the argument of speculation is flawed from both sides, which is why it cannot be used in a debate.

I recognize that I have no connection to another's life, and I am not attempting to claim their future, I am attempting to prevent others from doing so. I quote directly from my post: speculation of the future is no grounds for argument.

I understand that I am in no position judge, just as you aren't in a position to judge what a potential mother should do when faced with the choice of abortion.

Err... I believe I have the right to judge against those who murder, cheat and steal. I have a right to judge against a woman who takes away a potential life. Heck, if nobody judged other actions or people politicalcrossfire.com forums would never exist.