Political Crossfire Forums

[Gryff1nd0r]

I am curious how Christians rationalize the inconsistency of God throughout the Bible. Why would the highest most perfect being in the universe be so unpredictable and confusing? Here are are some of the different moods of God:

1) God the Cruel Practical Joker: God miraculously allows Abraham to beget a son, and they are so happy that they name him "Laughter". But the laughter doesn't last long, as God promptly tells Abraham to kill the son. So Abraham almost does it, and right at the last second, God tells Abraham that he got punked!! Since God can see through the souls of men, then he must have known that Abraham was loyal, so why did he play such a cruel trick?

2) God the War Lord: God leads his chosen people, violently overcoming enemies with walls of water and horrible plagues. He murders the first born sons of every Egyptian in order to free his people. His murdurous plan works, but then Pharoah decides to come after them after all. So then God drowns the whole army.

3) God the Frusterated Artist: God creates the world and humanity in 7 days, and declares that "It is good". Then, his perfect creation goes awry, and he decides to drown everyone to death, including all the little animals he made. It is reminiscent of the little kid who crumples up his drawing in tears.

4) God the Dictator: God gives Moses the Ten Commandments, and demands that those who disobey be put to death. As a result, smitings and sacrifice become routine.

5) God the Performer: God defeats the pagen god Baal in an epic contest to see who could light a sacrifice on fire. Afterwards, the pagens bow down to Yahweh, who has proved himself to be a better God than Baal. God celebrates the victory by causing a great storm and then allowing the pagen losers to be slaughered in a field.

6) God the Merciful Pacifist: This would be Jesus. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. :hip:

7) Feel free to add on to these, because I'm sure I missed many.


And of course, there are the different visions of God. God casually appears in the form of a man to Abraham, David, and other OT figures, where he doesn't reveal himself to be Yahweh for some time, and then amicable chats with them. God appears as a burning bush, or sometimes as fearful and undescribably terrifying visions. Sometimes He demands to be looked upon without fear, and other times He demands that eyes not be set upon his holiness. He really has a rather impressive wardrobe with which he used to make himself known to OT characters.

[sLiPpY]

You know, I really don't like this God character very much. :lol:

[Lee_p413]

1) Any man can be loyal to the point of death. But asking that man to sacrifice his son is a true test of loyalty. God wanted Abraham to be tested and to know he was tested. And to pass. No practical jokes involved - it sounds vaguely serious to me.

2) God gives Pharaoh and his men numerous, numerous chances to let the Israelites, who are an entire enslaved nation, leave. He begins with a simple request, then gives varying degrees of lesser plagues, up until the Passover plague. He then eradicated the army which again breaks its word and gives chase.
Read the entire story.

3) God creates the world. Humans screw it up. God clears the canvas - God can indeed be compared to an artist, and I imagine we would be quite frustrating, don't you?

4) God gives them the Ten Commandments along with quite a bit of other law. Most of it makes sense, as we look back upon it today, for practical reasons. Law was carried out harshly. True. That happened back in the day, buddy. As did sacrifices, before the Ten Commandments ever existed, not only among the Israelites but among many many other nations and belief systems as well.

5) God didn't beat anyone. There was no god, because he was false. It was merely to prove a point. It wasn't a performance. I bet if you were there and saw fire from the sky, you might've been in awe and understood that God really exists, too.

6) That's always been a rule. Be kind to you neighbor. Do unto them as you wish done unto you. Etc. It's called the basic ideas of kindness and moral civilization. Grow up and realize that that's the general idea most of the time when people live together in groups.



God the Father, in his own form, is not looked upon by anyone. Certain Old Testament figures see his hand, or a symbol - a burning bush - but these are not God Himself. Jesus is the second of the trinity, and walked Earth. That's... pretty common knowledge, even to people who don't believe it really happened. Point?


This post appears to be a lot of random nonsense, really. I'm sure you act different ways towards different people on occasion too. God is certainly confusing because He is God Almighty. If you recognize that, you understand that we cannot completely understand Him.

[Gryff1nd0r]

Lee_p413 wrote: 1) Any man can be loyal to the point of death. But asking that man to sacrifice his son is a true test of loyalty. God wanted Abraham to be tested and to know he was tested. And to pass. No practical jokes involved - it sounds vaguely serious to me.

It was a childish game. :roll:

God, being all-knowing, would know that Abraham was loyal. Showing this to Abraham would just make me say, "Uh, and I should trust you why?"

Lee_p413 wrote: 2) God gives Pharaoh and his men numerous, numerous chances to let the Israelites, who are an entire enslaved nation, leave. He begins with a simple request, then gives varying degrees of lesser plagues, up until the Passover plague. He then eradicated the army which again breaks its word and gives chase.
Read the entire story.

God can do anything, so why wasn't he peaceful about it? Why did he kill innocent first-born sons? If you are going to be nasty about it, why not at least kill the guy who is actually the perpetrator, and not innocents?

Lee_p413 wrote: 3) God creates the world. Humans screw it up. God clears the canvas - God can indeed be compared to an artist, and I imagine we would be quite frustrating, don't you?

Sure. Begs the question, "Why would God make an ugly and dysfunctional peice of artwork, one that prove to upset him time and time again?"

Lee_p413 wrote: 4) God gives them the Ten Commandments along with quite a bit of other law. Most of it makes sense, as we look back upon it today, for practical reasons. Law was carried out harshly. True. That happened back in the day, buddy. As did sacrifices, before the Ten Commandments ever existed, not only among the Israelites but among many many other nations and belief systems as well.

I know that, "buddy". This suggests to me that this was simply another stage in the history of religion... one in which they had moved to monothiesm, but not yet outgrown the idea of ritual sacrifices.

In the future, God would declare that animal sacrifices meant nothing to him. Why didn't he just declare that from the beginning? So that his people could have a little more fun stabbing and burning livestock?

Lee_p413 wrote: 5) God didn't beat anyone. There was no god, because he was false. It was merely to prove a point. It wasn't a performance. I bet if you were there and saw fire from the sky, you might've been in awe and understood that God really exists, too.

Right. And then I suppose I would promptly be taken into a field and slaughtered.

Lee_p413 wrote: 6) That's always been a rule. Be kind to you neighbor. Do unto them as you wish done unto you. Etc. It's called the basic ideas of kindness and moral civilization. Grow up and realize that that's the general idea most of the time when people live together in groups.

Of course it is. That is human nature, and you find it in every culture (at least it is practiced within the "in" group of the culture, though not always to outsiders). I know perfectly well that Christianity did not "invent" this virtue.

But God himself did not adhere to it, that is my point.

Lee_p413 wrote: God the Father, in his own form, is not looked upon by anyone. Certain Old Testament figures see his hand, or a symbol - a burning bush - but these are not God Himself. Jesus is the second of the trinity, and walked Earth. That's... pretty common knowledge, even to people who don't believe it really happened. Point?

Actually, there are different accounts, but in many, God appeared in the form of a man. He appeared to Abraham in this way as well as David (or so they claimed).

Lee_p413 wrote: This post appears to be a lot of random nonsense, really. I'm sure you act different ways towards different people on occasion too. God is certainly confusing because He is God Almighty. If you recognize that, you understand that we cannot completely understand Him.

Umm... well first of all, if I acted that differently towards different people, I would be in an insane asylum, because I would probably have multiple-personality or bi-polar disorder.

How do you know that maybe all these different accounts of God and his nature do not exist simply because random people made him up, imagined, and fabricated him in different ways? That seems much more plausible to me.

[Addison]

Interesting enough, it was not God who appeared to Abraham, but Satan. If you read the ancient gnostic scripts and cross-reference other religions, as well as the informative book The Origin Of Satan by Elaine Pagels, it becomes obvious. The word "Satan" comes from Greek and means either "accuser" or "adversary". The Satans were, and are, a class of Angels made for the purpose of testing humanity (such as the Satan in the book of Job). A Satan will cause afflictions unto a man to test his strength, and compare what happened to Abraham with what happened to Job. Anyway, the leader of the Satans was Sataniel, the 8th Archangel (the others being Michael, Gabriel, Raphael [these three are the only mentioned in the Bible and the Catholic Book of Tobit] and Uriel, Jeremiel, and I forget two others). Sataniel rebuked God by the prompting of Belial, thought to be the begetter of the classes of the Satans, and the Angel of Rebellion. From here he gets his name as Lucifer, which has two meanings. The first is from the planet Venus, and his name is "morning star" or "light-bringer." But recent examination of Hebrew scripts believe his name comes from the noun "halel" and the verb "yelel" in Hebrew, meaning "lamenter"--a reference to his regretting the Heavenly rebellion. From here, we go on to disprove the existence of Hell and the Zoroastrian ideal of a balancing darkness opposing the True God (The Prince of Darkness), when, in actuality, Satans are just different Angels, and Sataniel just a banished archangel. This seems all rather off the point, except the point being that it was not God who tested Abraham, but a Satan.

[Gryff1nd0r]

Addison wrote: Interesting enough, it was not God who appeared to Abraham, but Satan. If you read the ancient gnostic scripts and cross-reference other religions, as well as the informative book The Origin Of Satan by Elaine Pagels, it becomes obvious. The word "Satan" comes from Greek and means either "accuser" or "adversary". The Satans were, and are, a class of Angels made for the purpose of testing humanity (such as the Satan in the book of Job). A Satan will cause afflictions unto a man to test his strength, and compare what happened to Abraham with what happened to Job. Anyway, the leader of the Satans was Sataniel, the 8th Archangel (the others being Michael, Gabriel, Raphael [these three are the only mentioned in the Bible and the Catholic Book of Tobit] and Uriel, Jeremiel, and I forget two others). Sataniel rebuked God by the prompting of Belial, thought to be the begetter of the classes of the Satans, and the Angel of Rebellion. From here he gets his name as Lucifer, which has two meanings. The first is from the planet Venus, and his name is "morning star" or "light-bringer." But recent examination of Hebrew scripts believe his name comes from the noun "halel" and the verb "yelel" in Hebrew, meaning "lamenter"--a reference to his regretting the Heavenly rebellion. From here, we go on to disprove the existence of Hell and the Zoroastrian ideal of a balancing darkness opposing the True God (The Prince of Darkness), when, in actuality, Satans are just different Angels, and Sataniel just a banished archangel. This seems all rather off the point, except the point being that it was not God who tested Abraham, but a Satan.

Um...

And how exactly did people come to know about this little drama that transpired in the heavens?

What gives "ancient gnostic scripts" any level of credibility?

How do other (false) religions help to tell you what really happened?

Is Elaine Pagels an angel or does God talk to her, because I don't see how else she would she have the faintest idea about the origin of Satan (even though you claim she makes it obvious).

If Satan exists to test humanity, then why did God exist, because it seems that throughout the OT that was all he did. With a God like Yahweh, who needs Satans? :lol:

[Addison]

I've the utmost respect for all religions besides Christianity, and firmly believe all people will go to Heaven who lead good and honest lives. F'r instance, how did the migratory nomads of northern Siberia learn of Hebrewism when they crossed the Alaskan peninsula which later seperated North America from Asia, and thusly cut them off from all other religions entirely. It is written in the Bible that prophets are sent to all peoples, and all religions derived therefrom must be holy in God's sight, allowing the followers entrance to Heaven.

I'm not sure if you're aware of the idea of Cultural Diffusion and Assimilation, which is how two cultures who come together by way of war, trade or treaty will assimilate cultures, and diffuse ideas amongst each other. The Roman and Greek cultures heavily influenced modern day Christianity, and both of those in turn had taken things from early Egyptian, Assyrian, and Phoenician cultures, as well as those ideas traveling the Silk Road from China and Asia. The things in the Bible were chosen by the Church to be included, and not by any other Holy source. I see no reason Gnostic Gospels need not be included as religious sources or testaments to God's glory. But, the earlier Hebrew, Gnostic, and Apocryphal texts are best in that they are pure of the cultural influence of previous civilizations' interaction with them. As I said, we get our idea of a great evil from Zoroastrianism, and Hell from the Latin cultures. Thus it goes.

Read the book before you dismiss another person's life work as inconsequential to yourself, and not worth your time or respect. Read her book, or do the research before you discredit her entirely.

It has all the credibility of the Faith, if you have any at all. If you do not believe, no credibility is inherent, as all personal views of credibility stem from perspective and are relative to the individual--so, if you're different in your views of a Belief, then it is rather silly to ask the credibility of the source.

What I was saying is that it never was God punishing them directly--most of God's work is done through angels. Angel is just another word for "messenger." Gabriel is the holy messenger of angels, Raphael is the fighter of inner demons, and Michael is the sword-wielding angel against Evil.

If you've any more questions directed to me, ask away. However, you might notice how I make all my information directly available to you without personal insults or biased remarks, etc. There is a way to question another's belief without sounding pretentious.

If you don't follow Christianity or religion, I do assume you are familiar with, and respect, Aristotle. He said:
"It is a mark of an educated man to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it."
Try to still your biases from any actual questions you have about an idea.

[John]

Gryff1nd0r, you can't even navigate your mountain bike down a trail successfully, how do you think you're going to question God's motives? Do you really think you can grasp the full picture...I know I can't. If you can...you need to start directing that brain power to the cure for cancer or something because you must be the smartest person who has ever lived.

It's pretty bold to throw God's name around and compare Him to Satan....and ta think you don't even have a pair to weigh you down.

[Gryff1nd0r]

John wrote: Gryff1nd0r, you can't even navigate your mountain bike down a trail successfully, how do you think you're going to question God's motives?

Oh my God, you are right. Until I master mountain biking, no more intellectual curiosity for me! :roll:

John wrote: Do you really think you can grasp the full picture...I know I can't.

What "full-picture"? Of course not. I don't claim to know all the answers (or even many of them), but you don't need to know everything to smell bullsh!t. Does that make sense?

If I lose my car keys (which I apparently have), I will try to think about where I might have placed them or if someone else might have taken them. If you come up to me with a note that says "I am the Keebler Elf, and I have taken your keys to Never Never Land", I would not believe that because there is no reason to believe in Keebler Elves or Never Never Land. You say, "Yes, but it is written right here on this paper." I say, "So what? This really isn't getting me any closer to finding my keys!!!" Now, I still don't know where my keys are... but I am certainly not going to embark on a journey to find the elf who stole my keys just because that is the only explanation put down on paper. That would be insane.

Same thing applies to your Bible.

John wrote: It's pretty bold to throw God's name around and compare Him to Satan....and ta think you don't even have a pair to weigh you down.

Umm... you are right, I don't. :?

[John]

Quote: If I lose my car keys (which I apparently have), I will try to think about where I might have placed them or if someone else might have taken them. If you come up to me with a note that says "I am the Keebler Elf, and I have taken your keys to Never Never Land", I would not believe that because there is no reason to believe in Keebler Elves or Never Never Land. You say, "Yes, but it is written right here on this paper." I say, "So what? This really isn't getting me any closer to finding my keys!!!" Now, I still don't know where my keys are... but I am certainly not going to embark on a journey to find the elf who stole my keys just because that is the only explanation put down on paper. That would be insane.


So you decide to patronize people who actually have had personal experiences with God by comparing the Bible to a note from the Keebler Elf?

Ever thought that it just might be your attitude?


Besides...using your analogy....the most logical thing to do would be to try and figure out who wrote the note (not ignore the note because you don't believe in elves). Because 1) you have lost your keys and 2) someone has left you a note about the keys. One thing we know for sure here...the writer of the note knows more about the location of your keys than you do.

[Gryff1nd0r]

John wrote:
So you decide to patronize people who actually have had personal experiences with God by comparing the Bible to a note from the Keebler Elf?

There are scientific explanations for "experiences with God", they are not some phenomenon. Scientists can observe changes in the brains of meditating Buddists or monks deep in prayer.. it alters their perception of reality, and it is interpreted slightly differently depending on what religion the meditator believes in.. it may be described as oneness with the universe, oneness with God, or nothingness (but they all say that the experience goes beyond words).

The experience is sometimes rather orgasmic... which isn't too surprising, because the part of the brain that gets affected is the same part of the brain that gets affected when you have an orgasm (and gives you that wonderful high).

So, I am assuming that when you say "personal experience" you are speaking of a physical experience, like the emotional feelings you get at a church service, or the more profound feelings you get during a true deep religious experience (these are rare though). Those are not encounters with God, my friend.

John wrote: Ever thought that it just might be your attitude?

Hey, don't talk to me about my attitude. Some of the worst, most patronizing attitudes in this world come from self-rightous religious people, and your posts often reek of that attitude.

And I am not just some angry little athiest who thinks that I know everything and religious people are stupid... I spend the first 18 years of my life in an extremely religious Catholic home, going to church every Sunday, going on mission trips to South America, and being totally immersed in this Christian environment.... trapped in its bubble of self-rightousness and denial of the state of the world. I was always something of a black sheep in that environment (and an embarrassment to my parents) because I dared to ask unthinkable questions and read blasphemous books (like *gasp* books on evolution).

My conversion from Christianity was very gradual and very painful, and I'm still wearing my crucifix. I probably won't get rid of it, because while the Bible does give some people reason to behave like ridiculously infuriating idiots, I think that the teachings of JESUS were very good (although I don't believe him to literally be the son of God, and if you investigate, you will realize that he never claimed to be the son of God; Paul decided it after he died, and the story of Jesus was turned into an elaborate myth and written down 80 years afterwards. And you must know that when a story gets passed down several times, it gets exaggerated and changed, so imagine what happened over 80 years of oral history and theological theorizing!)

John wrote: Besides...using your analogy....the most logical thing to do would be to try and figure out who wrote the note (not ignore the note because you don't believe in elves). Because 1) you have lost your keys and 2) someone has left you a note about the keys. One thing we know for sure here...the writer of the note knows more about the location of your keys than you do.

I didn't really mean for the analogy to be taken that far.

I just wanted to draw the parallels between believing something ridiculous just because it was written down and other people believe it (and coincidentally, they only believe it because it was written down). It is a sheep mentality: if ALL these people believe it, it can't just be a lie. And people don't try to discover the lie, because it is a pleasant lie to believe (that we were put here for a reason and will live after death). Who doesn't want to believe that?

You should read a book on the history and evolution of religion. It was rather a systematic and predictable process. People always want God(s), and God(s) evolve throughout time to meet society's different socio-political needs and reflect their fears and desires. I would recommend "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. It might change the way you look at religion... not just yours, all of them. :wink:

[Omega1]

7) God the Sadist: God sends 2 bears to kill 42 children for making fun of a bald man.

[John]

Quote: Those are not encounters with God, my friend.

Funny how you jump to conclusions without even knowing the specifics.

Anyways...you can have your attitude. All it's causing you is grief. You can deny it...but I know that you're unhappy. Anyone who claims otherwise and hasn’t come into a relationship with the One true God is a liar. It’s as simple as that.


BTW..I can care less if you have an attitude towards me or others who cross your path. That wasn’t what I was talking about. I was talking about your attitude towards God. That has everything to do with how you perceive the Truth.

The haughtier you get...the less you will know....and the more you will THINK you know. It’s a downward spiral that people RUN down with enthusiasm.

[John]

Quote: There are scientific explanations for "experiences with God", they are not some phenomenon.

My experiences have little to do with feeling...in fact I wish I did experience more of these "feelings" that people talk about.

Although scientist also explain that your brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25.

Quote:
New medical research helps explain why. The part of the brain that weighs risks and controls impulsive behavior isn't fully developed until about age 25, according to the National Institutes of Health. Some state legislators and safety activists question whether 16-year-olds should be licensed to drive.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050301065609990011


Maybe your attitude has something to do with your un-developed brain.

[Gryff1nd0r]

John wrote:
Anyways...you can have your attitude. All it's causing you is grief. You can deny it...but I know that you're unhappy. Anyone who claims otherwise and hasn’t come into a relationship with the One true God is a liar. It’s as simple as that.


You don't know me, and that is exactly the attitude I'm talking about!!! Who do you think you are, that you can tell me I am not happy?

In all honesty, I am happier and more comfortable with myself now that I have finally shaken myself free from religion. I used to have faith, and it didn't make me happy, it made me confused and dismayed. I got sick of being around people who all think that they possess some divine truth about the world, and everyone else is wrong and going to hell. I got sick of being around people trying to tell others how "God" wants them to live. It made me rather depressed, actually.

And do you believe that other religious people are not happy with THEIR "one true God?" Buddy, a whole lot of people know the "One true God", and there are many "One true Gods!!!" :lol:

Your faith is not special, no matter what you think. Billions of people have had faith in different gods, and they have all been happy and thoroughly convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong. What on Earth makes you think that your "rightness" is any more right than everyone else's "rightness"???

The funny thing is that you are all wrong. It is like watching people argue about what kind of cheese the moon is made of. :lol:

[Gryff1nd0r]

John wrote: Quote: There are scientific explanations for "experiences with God", they are not some phenomenon.

My experiences have little to do with feeling...in fact I wish I did experience more of these "feelings" that people talk about.

Although scientist also explain that your brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25.

Quote:
New medical research helps explain why. The part of the brain that weighs risks and controls impulsive behavior isn't fully developed until about age 25, according to the National Institutes of Health. Some state legislators and safety activists question whether 16-year-olds should be licensed to drive.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050301065609990011


Maybe your attitude has something to do with your un-developed brain.

At least you are being mature and staying on topic. :roll:

My brain is just fine, a lot of people even consider me smart.

[John]

Gryff1nd0r wrote: John wrote: Quote: There are scientific explanations for "experiences with God", they are not some phenomenon.

My experiences have little to do with feeling...in fact I wish I did experience more of these "feelings" that people talk about.

Although scientist also explain that your brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25.

Quote:
New medical research helps explain why. The part of the brain that weighs risks and controls impulsive behavior isn't fully developed until about age 25, according to the National Institutes of Health. Some state legislators and safety activists question whether 16-year-olds should be licensed to drive.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050301065609990011


Maybe your attitude has something to do with your un-developed brain.

At least you are being mature and staying on topic. :roll:

My brain is just fine, a lot of people even consider me smart.

According to science, your brain isn't fully developed. How can you trust your own judgement?

I know from experience that my way of thinking changed as I got close to the age of thirty.

[John]

Quote: In all honesty, I am happier and more comfortable with myself now that I have finally shaken myself free from religion.

Religion doesn't make people happy (quite the oposite actually)....a true relationship with the One true God does. It's what we are designed for.

You will never feel satisfied until you start to understand this.

[Gryff1nd0r]

John wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote: John wrote: Quote: There are scientific explanations for "experiences with God", they are not some phenomenon.

My experiences have little to do with feeling...in fact I wish I did experience more of these "feelings" that people talk about.

Although scientist also explain that your brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25.

Quote:
New medical research helps explain why. The part of the brain that weighs risks and controls impulsive behavior isn't fully developed until about age 25, according to the National Institutes of Health. Some state legislators and safety activists question whether 16-year-olds should be licensed to drive.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050301065609990011


Maybe your attitude has something to do with your un-developed brain.

At least you are being mature and staying on topic. :roll:

My brain is just fine, a lot of people even consider me smart.

According to science, your brain isn't fully developed. How can you trust your own judgement?

I know from experience that my way of thinking changed as I got close to the age of thirty.

:lol:

That article is about the brains ability to control impulsive bahavior, not long thought processes and reasoning. I can reason, understand concepts, and distinguish reality from bullsh!t as well as anyone. That has nothing to do with being impulsive.

A conversion from Christianity after 18 years of close experience with it, and reading dozens and dozens of books on various related topics before making a gradual decision is hardly impulsive.

I don't deny being impulsive on occasion (although I'm not sure if this is really because my brain is underdeveloped). For example, mountain-biking down an advanced trail with no experience, terrible weather conditions, and no helmet just because I was excited about my new bike counts as "impulsive".

This matter, however, does not.

[Gryff1nd0r]

John wrote: Quote: In all honesty, I am happier and more comfortable with myself now that I have finally shaken myself free from religion.

Religion doesn't make people happy (quite the oposite actually)....a true relationship with the One true God does. It's what we are designed for.

You will never feel satisfied until you start to understand this.

Um.. so religion makes people unhappy? :?

And a relationship with God is not religion?

Enlighten me and describe your secular relationship with the one true God, and tell me why you think that your God is more real than other people's Gods (they are just as convinced as you are). I mean, I think that a guy who is willing to blow himself up as a martyr is probably pretty darn convinced that his relationship with teh one true God is real... he is willing to bet his life on it. How do you know he is wrong and you are right?

For the same reasons you know he is wrong, I know you are wrong. :wink: