Political Crossfire Forums

[Random Evil Guy]

hypothetical example:

some guy leads a life that makes attila the hun look like mother terasa. killing and raping everyone in sight. on his deathbed, however, he converts. accepts jesus and all that stuff. he goes to heaven then...?

another example:
a atheist/buddist/jew/whatever is good, just and kind to everyone, but never converts. this dude goes to hell, no?

that sum it up right?

[Gilbert1908]

Random Evil Guy wrote: hypothetical example:

some guy leads a life that makes attila the hun look like mother terasa. killing and raping everyone in sight. on his deathbed, however, he converts. accepts jesus and all that stuff. he goes to heaven then...?

another example:
a atheist/buddist/jew/whatever is good, just and kind to everyone, but never converts. this dude goes to hell, no?

that sum it up right?

First the truthful answer is that only God can actually know.

Here is the Catholic perspective.

In the spirit of hypotheticals you are right about the murdering rapist but wrong about the the Buddhist, Jew, Hindu etc. (we will take the athiest last.

The murdering rapist can find salvation if he truly is sorry and accepts Christ, not likely but possible.

The Buddhist, Jew, Hindu, those ignorant of God are not necessarily excluded from salvation. It is the Catholic belief that some people are born with Grace of God (only God knows of course) and are therefore prepared and predestined at birth for salvation.

Athiests deny the existence of God and therefore are out of luck.

[garyd]

With all due respect sir you establish a false dichotomy as is usual for those lacking understanding.

The man was not saved by his death bed confession or any other thing he had done but by the fact that his name was written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Had he no work of kindness done publicly or in secret it is highly unlikely that His name was ever written there in.

Even in the case of the righteous appearing Buddhist or atheist the work does not carry justification for the best of works can be done for ignoble reasons and to God it is the motive that matters.

Examine if you will sir the story of the Sheep and the Goats and note that the goats are going to hell not because they have no works but rather because the works they had were either insufficient or done for the wrong reason and almost certainly the latter. While the Sheep can remember no good deed they have done but are going to heaven.

[MJB]

Random Evil Guy wrote: hypothetical example:

some guy leads a life that makes attila the hun look like mother terasa. killing and raping everyone in sight. on his deathbed, however, he converts. accepts jesus and all that stuff. he goes to heaven then...?

another example:
a atheist/buddist/jew/whatever is good, just and kind to everyone, but never converts. this dude goes to hell, no?

that sum it up right?

What do you think?

I am assuming, by your hypothetical, that this is what you believe Christianity teaches.

So, in the event this assumption is correct, I will ask some questions of you. They aren't trick questions either, just honest ones.

Do you think a just and merciful God would damn all those who were never able to hear of Christ, to an eternity in hell?

Do you think he would damn all those to hell who didn't hear correct teachings in order to sufficiently understand his word regarding Christ?

Do you think that the vile man who says, "I believe," on his death bed, no longer bears any responsibility at all for the heinous acts he committed throughout his life?

Do you think that the good and just and kind non-Christian is automatically deserving of an eternity in hell, simply because he has not accepted Christ during his lifetime?

Finally, if one goes to hell because he dies without accepting Christ, then what becomes of all the babies and little children who die without a knowledge and understanding of Christ? Are these little ones evil and wretched and deserving of an eternity in hell too?

What do you think?

[Random Evil Guy]

garyd wrote:
The man was not saved by his death bed confession or any other thing he had done but by the fact that his name was written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Had he no work of kindness done publicly or in secret it is highly unlikely that His name was ever written there in.


so you're a calvinist then?

[Addison]

There is no hell. Hell is a cultural diffusion acquired by Christianity in their interactions with the Greeks and Romans. They believed Tartarus to be the place where the evil dead go. Early Hebrews believed none of the sort. The word She'ol, in Hebrew, is the afterlife they believe in. It is recorded to mean either "deep pit" or "GRAVE". The idea of the "Pit", as a form of hell, is a misconstruation of this word. The word simply means the physical and spiritual abyssal grave we go to in death--though they did have a Heaven in mind. Read much of the OT and it is made clearer. The point is moot, since no actual Hell exists in original Christian doctrine. No matter how bad the crime, no loving God would subject any man to ETERNAL horrible punishment. However, the evil man would have to repent, and to be sorry for all of those takes more than can be achieved on a death bed. However, all religions, as Mahatma Gandhi says, are true--and thus any noble man with love for all other men and of good moral standing, achieves Heaven.

[Random Evil Guy]

Addison wrote: There is no hell. Hell is a cultural diffusion acquired by Christianity in their interactions with the Greeks and Romans. They believed Tartarus to be the place where the evil dead go. Early Hebrews believed none of the sort. The word She'ol, in Hebrew, is the afterlife they believe in. It is recorded to mean either "deep pit" or "GRAVE". The idea of the "Pit", as a form of hell, is a misconstruation of this word. The word simply means the physical and spiritual abyssal grave we go to in death--though they did have a Heaven in mind. Read much of the OT and it is made clearer. The point is moot, since no actual Hell exists in original Christian doctrine. No matter how bad the crime, no loving God would subject any man to ETERNAL horrible punishment. However, the evil man would have to repent, and to be sorry for all of those takes more than can be achieved on a death bed. However, all religions, as Mahatma Gandhi says, are true--and thus any noble man with love for all other men and of good moral standing, achieves Heaven.

there is no god either, but that is not the point here. i'm more interested in what christians actually believe. if they honestly believe faith is more important than 'works'. that what you believe is more important than what you do...

[Addison]

If that didn't work, can I sum up the entire view from the Bible in one single verse, and end this moot thread.

1st James Chaoter 2: Verse 14-18.

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peave; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
(From the New Revised Standard Edition)

Thus, if you have faith without works, your belief is moot and of no benefit to you or others. Justification by Faith is only a church point of view, and was created only by Martin Luther in regard to people PAYING TO BE FORGIVEN GREAT SINS, and not people who do good works without faith, or faith without great works. It has no bearing on the actual Bible references.

[John]

Random Evil Guy wrote: hypothetical example:

some guy leads a life that makes attila the hun look like mother terasa. killing and raping everyone in sight. on his deathbed, however, he converts. accepts jesus and all that stuff. he goes to heaven then...?

another example:
a atheist/buddist/jew/whatever is good, just and kind to everyone, but never converts. this dude goes to hell, no?

that sum it up right?

A man can't choose to convert. It doesn't work that way. God chooses you....He gives you the gift of being able to believe and in turn be saved.

Do you really think that you can just will yourself at the last minute into believing something that you don't believe? Of course not.

But God could choose to save this guy just to show how great His Grace really is. And if God did it...the man really would be a new creature...one who has changed from his ways...who would you be to demand that God send them to Hell?

Now really? Have you ever met anyone who was just and kind to everyone? I haven't. Everyone has a dark side.

[John]

Quote: There is no hell.

I wouldn't bet on that.

[Random Evil Guy]

John wrote:
A man can't choose to convert. It doesn't work that way. God chooses you....He gives you the gift of being able to believe and in turn be saved.

so, no free will then? you're a calvinist as well?

[Addison]

And I respect that as an opinion, just as mine is.

But, too many people are scared away from religion for fear of eternal torment. If we eradicate it, and have proof of it, then more people convert. And even if they are converting under what you consider is a false pretension, it is moot in that they won't experience since, having converted, they'll be going direct the other way.

See the purpose, sir?

[John]

Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote:
A man can't choose to convert. It doesn't work that way. God chooses you....He gives you the gift of being able to believe and in turn be saved.

so, no free will then? you're a calvinist as well?

Of course we have free will. You just won't freely choose God in and of your own free will because in our fallen state it just isn't in us.

[Addison]

Yes, Predestination and Calvinism are a bit disconcerting.

[Random Evil Guy]

John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote:
A man can't choose to convert. It doesn't work that way. God chooses you....He gives you the gift of being able to believe and in turn be saved.

so, no free will then? you're a calvinist as well?

Of course we have free will. You just won't freely choose God in and of your own free will because in our fallen state it just isn't in us.

it was a hypothetical question. if you answer, you have to accept the premises. the 'evil' dude accepts jesus as his blablabla on his death bed. does he go to hell or heaven? it's a simple question...

[Random Evil Guy]

Addison wrote: Yes, Predestination and Calvinism are a bit disconcerting.

calvinism is the most 'logical' and reasonable verision of christianity. for example, did adam really sin? how could he sin if god already knew he would sin before he created him? god created adam and knew everything he would do, so how could adam then 'betray' god?

[Addison]

Calvinism and Predestination involve no idea of free will--thusly all men cannot be held responsible for their actions. And then Hell is a place where people who had no control over their actions are forced to suffer eternally. If thats the state of mind and consciousness you choose to live in, good luck with that.

[John]

Addison wrote: And I respect that as an opinion, just as mine is.

But, too many people are scared away from religion for fear of eternal torment. If we eradicate it, and have proof of it, then more people convert. And even if they are converting under what you consider is a false pretension, it is moot in that they won't experience since, having converted, they'll be going direct the other way.

See the purpose, sir?

Yeah...I see it. But it wouldn't be the truth. The truth is that Hell is real enough for God to send His Son to atone for the sins of man to give us an out. Converting is for naught if the conversion isn't in Truth.

I wasn't interested in something that just makes me feel good…I wanted to know the Truth no matter what that truth is even if it turned out to be a scary truth. And yes...the Truth is scary. Can you imagine standing before God...and not only that...to stand in front of God who gave so much to save you and you rejected it and was indifferent to it?

[John]

Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote:
A man can't choose to convert. It doesn't work that way. God chooses you....He gives you the gift of being able to believe and in turn be saved.

so, no free will then? you're a calvinist as well?

Of course we have free will. You just won't freely choose God in and of your own free will because in our fallen state it just isn't in us.

it was a hypothetical question. if you answer, you have to accept the premises. the 'evil' dude accepts jesus as his blablabla on his death bed. does he go to hell or heaven? it's a simple question...

The answer is yes...yes he would. But it's a really silly hypothetical question.

Hypothetically, you can ask any question and engineer it be answered how you want it to be.

[Random Evil Guy]

Addison wrote: Calvinism and Predestination involve no idea of free will--thusly all men cannot be held responsible for their actions.

like i said, look at the adam example. god knew that adam would betray 'him' before he even created adam. how is that free will then?