Political Crossfire Forums

Lumina · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 15951

My community has had a Planned Parenthood Clinic for 30 years, and it wasn't until this organization built a new clinic and began providing abortions that peaceful protesting began. College students such as my son's girlfriend go to PP for women's health services, and this never provoked any objection, but since abortions have been performed, the battle has been on. In fact, my community has become the national model for peaceful protest. This morning I was out at the site--on the public right-of-way, of course--and the experience was particularly scary.

We always stand with our backs to the street, and the fact is that if you protest anything, you need to expect loud, vulgar objections to this.
Today, though, vehicles passed by shouting, "F*** you, you f****** douche bags!" I hardly ever think thoughts like this, but I wondered to day if one of us would take a bullet in the back.

I'm curious about the opinions of this sort of response from those of you who are pro-abortion/pro-choice. Again, the protests are silent...just folks who are pro-life standing and praying. Opinions?

levin893 · Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 177 Location: L.A.

I don't personally take a side on abortion since I'm a male and don't feel I have the right to. I think that as long as people are calm and don't harass those getting abortion then it is completely legal and part of democracy. I feel those who don't believe in abortion have a right to express their opinion as long as they do it in a positive, peaceful manner.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3500 Location: Tulsa, OK

Lumina wrote: We always stand with our backs to the street, and the fact is that if you protest anything, you need to expect loud, vulgar objections to this.
Today, though, vehicles passed by shouting, "F*** you, you f****** douche bags!" I hardly ever think thoughts like this, but I wondered to day if one of us would take a bullet in the back.
Protesting anything – especially an issues as divisive as abortion – is prone to draw out extremist reactions, sadly this is human nature. One of my best friends is gay and I accompanied him when he went to “pride fest” this year and low and behold there were Christian extremists gathered around protesting with signs yelling obscenities and vulgar slander. There wasn’t a doubt in my mind that a few of these individuals retained the capacity to become overtly violent, that is why a strong police force was required. If you intend on protesting or showing solidarity for an issue you believe in you can very well expect hostility even if you are peaceful and respectful.
Lumina wrote: I'm curious about the opinions of this sort of response from those of you who are pro-abortion/pro-choice. Again, the protests are silent...just folks who are pro-life standing and praying. Opinions?
I am “pro-choice/pro-abortion” and I would oppose anyone attempting to revoke your right to peacefully protest. I strongly disagree with your stance but I agree very strongly with your right to have it and to vocalize it.

Voltaire wrote: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

levin893 · Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 177 Location: L.A.

Voltaire said it best.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3500 Location: Tulsa, OK

levin893 wrote: Voltaire said it best. That he did. His quote came directly to my mind after reading this thread.

No2wookie · Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 1224

Men certainly do have a right to take a stance on abortion.

WeThePeople · Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject:

No2wookie wrote: Men certainly do have a right to take a stance on abortion.

Indeed, if you believe, as I do, that abortion is morally wrong (which is to say it typiclly constitutes taking an innocent, perfectly healthy life for the convenience of the mother), then you can't just back off because you'll never be in a situtation where you will face that temptation. If you believe it's wrong, then you believe it's wrong, and it shouldn't matter who does it.

Quote: Protesting anything – especially an issues as divisive as abortion – is prone to draw out extremist reactions, sadly this is human nature. One of my best friends is gay and I accompanied him when he went to “pride fest” this year and low and behold there were Christian extremists gathered around protesting with signs yelling obscenities and vulgar slander. There wasn’t a doubt in my mind that a few of these individuals retained the capacity to become overtly violent, that is why a strong police force was required. If you intend on protesting or showing solidarity for an issue you believe in you can very well expect hostility even if you are peaceful and respectful.

Sadly, this is so true... some people just don't understand that vulgarity and violence simply taint whatever ideal you commit them in the name of. And, sadly, those people exist on all sides... I myself have gone to protests of gay marriage here in massachusetts, and even though I, like you, was being as peaceful about it as possible, it didnt stop some of the gay rights protesters from spitting at me and yelling and calling me, and my fellow protesters (who outnumbered them by a great deal, actually) all sorts of nasty names that aren't worth repeating here...

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

A society is a whole, the laws of that society speak for everyone regardless of religious affiliation. That is what I think religious people don't understand, they put God above the laws of society.

This is wrong as anyone can be doing anything and justify it by their 'religion', because you can't prove religion, or religiousness or whther or not there even is such a religion. If you act on your personal beliefs, believing them greater than the law, then you should open yourself up to be punished by society.

Whether you like it or not, if abortion is legal, then you shouldn't be outside a legal establishment protesting it, you have a vehicle of protest built into the democratic system, vote on your desires.

If you havn't got a big enough majority in your local or overall society to make abortion illegal, then you should consider if you want to live in that society.

There are plenty of states with fundamentalist majorities that you can go and live in.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Lumina wrote:
We always stand with our backs to the street, and the fact is that if you protest anything, you need to expect loud, vulgar objections to this.
Today, though, vehicles passed by shouting, "F*** you, you f****** douche bags!" I hardly ever think thoughts like this, but I wondered to day if one of us would take a bullet in the back.
Shouting obscenities out of cars isn't violent, I used to get that all the time.
Nonetheless, I'd enjoy throwing the good-old empty soda can at anti-abortion protesters.

JayDubya · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1991 Location: Texas

Selfish_Meme wrote: Whether you like it or not, if abortion is legal, then you shouldn't be outside a legal establishment protesting it, you have a vehicle of protest built into the democratic system, vote on your desires.

If you havn't got a big enough majority in your local or overall society to make abortion illegal, then you should consider if you want to live in that society.

There are plenty of states with fundamentalist majorities that you can go and live in.

Heeeeeeey guess what. It's the State of Texas. We did have a majority. We still do. The SCOTUS overstepped their boundaries as a federal entity and in one of their worst decisions ever, removed our laws regarding abortion.

Once Roe v. Wade goes down, and it will (and not a moment too soon), you'll see just how fast those laws can go back up - the will of the people and our 10th amendment, it seems, was irrelevant to Justice Blackmun and his personal and extremely loose interpretation of our Constitution.

The federal government of the United States has a long record of trampling all over the Constitution and the founders' intent. True, the United States 2.0 was meant to be stronger than the 7 years under the Articles of Confederation... but this is in matters of interstate commerce, defense, trade, yadda, yadda... The states are meant to have far more local control than they do, however.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8771

I applaud the protestors, Lumina. While I may not share their point of view, I do applaud any protestor who is peaceful in their demonstrations despite vocally violent opposition that they may encounter.

levin893 · Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 177 Location: L.A.

No2wookie wrote: Men certainly do have a right to take a stance on abortion.

I think if cannot be in a situation involving the debate, than you should reserve your opion. I'm sick of a bunch of old men trying to solve this problem. If your a man and you want to take a stance, then do it. But keep in mind that you'll never be in such a difficult situation.

levin893 · Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 177 Location: L.A.

No2wookie wrote: Men certainly do have a right to take a stance on abortion.

I think if cannot be in a situation involving the debate, than you should reserve your opion. I'm sick of a bunch of old men trying to solve this problem. If your a man and you want to take a stance, then do it. But keep in mind that you'll never be in such a difficult situation.

levin893 · Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 177 Location: L.A.

No2wookie wrote: Men certainly do have a right to take a stance on abortion.

I think if cannot be in a situation involving the debate, than you should reserve your opinion. I'm sick of a bunch of old men trying to solve this problem. If your a man and you want to take a stance, then do it. But keep in mind that you'll never be in such a difficult situation.

No2wookie · Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 1224

1: I'm not old.

2: I'm not trying to solve the problem.

3: If I

4: You're

5: You didn't try to describe a situation. What type of situation would there have to be for "old men," in your mind, to be justified in talking about abortion. Do you realize most of the support for abortion as far as money goes comes from men? Do you realize a lot of abortionists are men? What would have to happen to give men the freedom to voice their opinions against abortion? I say against because everyone who says men shouldn't take a stance on abortion really means men shouldn't take a stance against abortion. Get rid of the double standard.

ShirzadianM · Joined: 27 Jun 2006 Posts: 140 Location: Ohio

Selfish_Meme wrote: There are plenty of states with fundamentalist majorities that you can go and live in.

How would this political migration solve appease ones personal conflict with abortion. Just because I live in Alabama or Idaho (fundamental states to be sure) does not mean I will live in a state free from abortion. Remember that the tenth amendment has been forgotten within the details of this issue...

Lumina · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 15951

UrielsFyre wrote: I applaud the protestors, Lumina. While I may not share their point of view, I do applaud any protestor who is peaceful in their demonstrations despite vocally violent opposition that they may encounter.

I need to add that I also protest against the death penalty and that in Texas, this is even worse than supporting the pro-life movement. I am not criticizing oppositional points of view; I used to hold them both myself on both issues and respect those points of view even though I now disagree.

At issue, I think, is the fear of others' ideas--that somehow, these ideas need to be supressed. This runs counter to what I believe the United States is all about. You know, Uriel--the whole "I disagree with my whole life with what you believe, but I'll die defending your right to expres your beliefs" thing.

I would say, as an American citizen, that so long as you don't "frighten the horses" (to quote the old Victorian phrase), one of the reasons that this country is great is the freedom to stand on a street corner and silently protest what you believe is wrong.

But I will also say that I was reminded this past Saturday that standing up for your beliefs may put a bullet in your back. Know our particular issues may vary, but the point is the same, I think. And I thought again this weekend that there are far worse ways to die than standing up for what you believe.

levin893 · Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 177 Location: L.A.

No2wookie wrote: 1: I'm not old.

2: I'm not trying to solve the problem.

3: If I

4: You're

5: You didn't try to describe a situation. What type of situation would there have to be for "old men," in your mind, to be justified in talking about abortion. Do you realize most of the support for abortion as far as money goes comes from men? Do you realize a lot of abortionists are men? What would have to happen to give men the freedom to voice their opinions against abortion? I say against because everyone who says men shouldn't take a stance on abortion really means men shouldn't take a stance against abortion. Get rid of the double standard.

Tell me the youngest person in the house or the senate. If they're under the age of 50 I give you credit. Thses people are not only past the point of every having to worry about abortions, but they are years behind in the times. But that doesn't matter. Just because I said a man should reserve his opinion about abortion, doesn't mean that man is against it. I know men who think abortions are good because they prevent another suffering life and aid stem cell research. Should they spread the word? If they want. But they show no regard for the reality of the situation so I would hope not. I'm honest in what I say. I don't care what side your on. Know the truth, put yourself in that position and then decide how you want to act.

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

ShirzadianM wrote: How would this political migration solve appease ones personal conflict with abortion. Just because I live in Alabama or Idaho (fundamental states to be sure) does not mean I will live in a state free from abortion. Remember that the tenth amendment has been forgotten within the details of this issue...
Maybe Ireland might be more to your liking.

No2wookie · Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 1224

Levin, your statement about not allowing old men to take a stance on abortion seems to imply that american men, you, me, my friend tim, the guy down the street, who all have feelings on the subject (you'd have to be lying in order to tell me you don't have a stance on abortion) can't have an opinion.

And certainly can't voice that opinion.