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tlynn1974
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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AllAmericanMan,
I am not going to continue going back and forth with you because I am not going to change your thinking and you are not going to change mine. However, I do want to mention a something from your last post.
Your personal life does matter. It is really easy to preach about saving a life. It is even easy to write letters and protest. The hard work comes later. If abortion is made illegal, there will be more children in the system that will need to be taken care of. It's easy to say "I saved the lives of million of fetuses!", but you have to realize that those fetuses will grow into children that need to be fed, dressed, educated, and loved. Assuming the law was to change, you can force a woman to have a child, but you will never be able to force a woman to take care of that child.
Look, I am very pro-life. I don't think I would ever have an abortion, even if raped. I am hoping to adopt once I finish my Master's. I think abortions are horrible and wonder how women are able to kill their children. However, my thinking is only mine and I have no right to force them on anyone else. Another woman is in a different state of mind, different hopes and dreams, and different situations.
I once saw a great bumper sticker - How can you trust me with a child if you can't trust me with a choice? |
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steen
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1430
Location: Upper Midwest
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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AllAmericanMan wrote: Abortion is ending the life of an individual human being. Nope.
Quote: Who cares about the economic consequences and difficulties of not killing them? So you want to pay more taxes to support women who are on welfare and have babies? that's a new one for fundie right-wingers. they are always about cutting welfare.
Quote: Maybe there are other ways from preventing the need for abortions, Better, earlier, scientific sex-ed. better, cheaper/free, more available contraceptives. better and more generous financial and educational support of pregnant women. Those three would go a long way to reduce the need for abortions. Yet, pro-lifers nearly universally object to 1-3 of the above.
Quote: instead of saying its a "right to choose" enforce the fact that there are consequences for peoples actions. Ah, back to the moralistic, misogynistic oppression and enslavement of women. No surprise there, the main pro-life M.O. of hate mongering.
Quote: You are only free to do so much, and ending the life of a human individual being should not be considered a choice at all. but then this does not occur during an abortion, so you are just spewing irrelevant blathering now.
Quote: If you doubt the fact that an embryo is a human individual, I can provide quotes from people much smarter than both of us in the biology field. Irrelevant Where is the actual, scientific evidence from peer-reviewed, scientific sources?
No? Just as expected. Your irrelevant claptrap merely is evidence of your dishonesty.
Quote: I can produce a chart of the developmental stages and lay out for you the constant process of life, starting from a single cell. Irrelevant. To prove individuality, you have to prove that there is no umbilical cord. Have at it. :roll:
Quote: No one is questioning if an embryo is a human life in the scientific community. But your claim was that it is an individual. You now trying to change the subject and engaging in misrepresentation merely shows how deceptive and dishonest you are.
Quote: If this organism is indeed a human individual, which scientifically it is, You are LYING about science again.
Quote: Until you can prove it is not a human organism or "human being", it is your lie. You prove it. You provide the scientific evidence you lie and claim exists.
Quote: All human individuals are given the right to live You are lying. |
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steen
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1430
Location: Upper Midwest
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| AllAmericanMan wrote: After conception, there is another "body" or being inside you. Be it a single cell, or fully formed fetus. It is the same thing all along, a human individual organism. A flat-out falsehood. |
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steen
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1430
Location: Upper Midwest
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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AllAmericanMan wrote: Rich people get away with murder too, a regrettable reality. Hardship is no excuse to condone killing an innocent human life. Irrelevant, as an embryo is not innocent.
Quote: Quote: You speak of hard work, but I wonder how many kids you have adopted or even fostered. Adoption can not be the solution to abortion. It has to come from education and availability of controceptives.
That being said, my personal life has no relevence to this debate.
I could of had an abortion myself and still be here arguing against it. What a lame way of avoiding admitting that you have yet to adopt. How hypocritical.
Quote: Quote: You are very outspoken with your views on abortion, but that will not help the kids being abused in a overwhelmed foster care system An unfortunate situation and should be addressed with equal ferocity as abortion. "Should be"? What are you doing about it?
Nothing? So you are a hypocrite! No surprise there. |
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Plodder
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 803
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Quote: Irrelevant, as an embryo is not innocent.
what crime has it commited? Quote: What a lame way of avoiding admitting that you have yet to adopt. How hypocritical not really, go read his posts again. Quote: "Should be"? What are you doing about it?
Nothing? So you are a hypocrite! No surprise there you know this how? |
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LostSoul3412
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 7781
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Plodder wrote: Quote: Irrelevant, as an embryo is not innocent.
what crime has it commited?
What crime has a rock committed? Or a piece of paper? These objects are not innocent, but they have no committed any crimes. |
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Gilbert1908
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 5138
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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steen wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: After conception, there is another "body" or being inside you. Be it a single cell, or fully formed fetus. It is the same thing all along, a human individual organism. A flat-out falsehood.
Which part of the statement is a falsehood and why exactly is it false?
a. There is another being inside a woman
b. It is a human individual organism. |
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AllAmericanMan
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 3606
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Gilbert1908 wrote: steen wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: After conception, there is another "body" or being inside you. Be it a single cell, or fully formed fetus. It is the same thing all along, a human individual organism. A flat-out falsehood.
Which part of the statement is a falsehood and why exactly is it false?
a. There is another being inside a woman
b. It is a human individual organism.
If he could explain how he would have. He doesnt debate he just throws cheap shots all day. |
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Gilbert1908
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 5138
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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AllAmericanMan wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: steen wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: After conception, there is another "body" or being inside you. Be it a single cell, or fully formed fetus. It is the same thing all along, a human individual organism. A flat-out falsehood.
Which part of the statement is a falsehood and why exactly is it false?
a. There is another being inside a woman
b. It is a human individual organism.
If he could explain how he would have. He doesnt debate he just throws cheap shots all day.
I know I just like getting him repeat those effective arguments like, LIAR, NO and FALSE or to say more things like "there are no facts in textbooks". I find it entertaining kind of like playing with a pet. |
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Plodder
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 803
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: What crime has a rock committed? Or a piece of paper? These objects are not innocent, but they have no committed any crimes. rocks and paper are not alive and they are not human. and embryo is both human and alive. |
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LostSoul3412
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 7781
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Plodder wrote: rocks and paper are not alive and they are not human. and embryo is both human and alive.
Your argument was that since an embryo has committed no crime, that it is innocent. You referenced nothing about the humanity of the embryo. However, since you have decided to play that card:
What makes an embryo more human than a rock? Appearances? |
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Gilbert1908
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 5138
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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LostSoul3412 wrote: Plodder wrote: rocks and paper are not alive and they are not human. and embryo is both human and alive.
Your argument was that since an embryo has committed no crime, that it is innocent. You referenced nothing about the humanity of the embryo. However, since you have decided to play that card:
What makes an embryo more human than a rock? Appearances?
Let see....its alive and human? |
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LostSoul3412
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 7781
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Gilbert1908 wrote: Let see....its alive and human?
What makes it human? Because it was created by humans? |
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Gilbert1908
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 5138
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Let see....its alive and human?
What makes it human? Because it was created by humans?
What species do you think the offspring of a human being might be? |
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LostSoul3412
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 7781
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Gilbert1908 wrote: What species do you think the offspring of a human being might be?
That's not what I asked. The question I posed was "Because an embryo is created by humans, does that make it human?" |
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AllAmericanMan
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 3606
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: What species do you think the offspring of a human being might be?
That's not what I asked. The question I posed was "Because an embryo is created by humans, does that make it human?"
He answered you. |
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LostSoul3412
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 7781
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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AllAmericanMan wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: What species do you think the offspring of a human being might be?
That's not what I asked. The question I posed was "Because an embryo is created by humans, does that make it human?"
He answered you.
No, he answered a different question. I will say again:
Because an embryo is created by humans, does that make it human? |
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AllAmericanMan
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 3606
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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LostSoul3412 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: What species do you think the offspring of a human being might be?
That's not what I asked. The question I posed was "Because an embryo is created by humans, does that make it human?"
He answered you.
No, he answered a different question. I will say again:
Because an embryo is created by humans, does that make it human?
I suppose replication by a male and female could be one possible criteria for a human life. Youd have to have a clause for cloning however as it is artificial. Instead its easier to identify the individual as a metabolizing entropy resisting organism composed of either a single cell or multiple cells working together in a system. In the case of a single cell that cell would have to be carrying out the task of human development to produce an adult, and the same for multiple cells not yet born. |
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Gilbert1908
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 5138
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: |
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LostSoul3412 wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: What species do you think the offspring of a human being might be?
That's not what I asked. The question I posed was "Because an embryo is created by humans, does that make it human?"
He answered you.
No, he answered a different question. I will say again:
Because an embryo is created by humans, does that make it human?
A human embryo created by natural human reproduction developing within a human female would surprisingly enough be human, yes that is my shocking and unbelievable premise. |
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LostSoul3412
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 7781
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Gilbert1908 wrote: A human embryo created by natural human reproduction developing within a human female would surprisingly enough be human, yes that is my shocking and unbelievable premise.
What of artificially created embryos, commonly known as "test tube babies"? |
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