Political Crossfire Forums

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

if it violated the us constitution then clearly we wouldne be here.

The DOI states that when governemnts fail to protect the people (eg unborn babies) the people have a duty to rise up and repalce that govenr,ent.

This can meant simply changeht elaw or change form of govenrment.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

AllAmericanMan wrote: Nonsense. Never have I seen someone whos "pro choice" mention the choice of the parents to engage in sexual reproduction. Never do I hear someone whos "pro choice" speak up for the lack of choice the newly conceived life gets. Never do I hear a murderer of someone who is born called "pro choice". And if abortion really is the murder of a human individual, as I believe it is, you are not pro choice at all you are pro abortion or pro death.

:roll:

On the issue of ABORTION, it is the CHOICE of the parents.

Sexual activity of the parents is not the issue, and it is none of your business, nor is it mine.

The embryo has no choice because it is not life, it is matter. The embryo has no choice because it has no brain. The embryo has no choice because the embryo has no thought.

Murder of a living being is a different issue. Murder of a human being is murder. Abortion of an embryo is abortion.

If people still choose not to have abortions (which happens), that is of no consequence to me. Either option the parents choose is their right to choose it. To be pro-life, however, is to take that choice and support only one option. To be pro-life is to be against choice. To be pro-choice is to be against tyranny.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

Plodder wrote: if it violated the us constitution then clearly we wouldne be here.

The DOI states that when governemnts fail to protect the people (eg unborn babies) the people have a duty to rise up and repalce that govenr,ent.

This can meant simply changeht elaw or change form of govenrment.

So to be pro-life is to advocate the fall of democracy?

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: if it violated the us constitution then clearly we wouldne be here. What nonsense is this?

Quote: The DOI states that when governemnts fail to protect the people (eg unborn babies) the people have a duty to rise up and repalce that govenr,ent. The DoI is not law, your ignorant implication none withstanding. Don't you know ANYTHING?

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

LostSoul3412 wrote: So to be pro-life is to advocate the fall of democracy? Pro-life is inherently anti-democracy, anti-American, trying to violate the US Constitution. In such, they are a greater threat to the US than Al Kaeida ever has been. If there is one big enemy of America, one big threat to who we are as a national identity, then it is the pro-lifers and fundie theocrats who seek to push their unique brand of Sharia on the rest of us.

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

steen wrote: ...then it is the pro-lifers and fundie theocrats who seek to push their unique brand of Sharia on the rest of us.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I hope we can stop them! Next thing you know they will be forcing us to pray to mecca and wear a turban too.

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

steen wrote: If there is one big enemy of America, one big threat to who we are as a national identity, then it is the pro-lifers...

Yeah, the biggest threat ever to happen to this country...

:roll:

I'm sorry, but haven't you been bitching about people making hyberbolic claims lately?

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

steen wrote: Plodder wrote: The DOI states that when governemnts fail to protect the people (eg unborn babies) the people have a duty to rise up and repalce that govenr,ent. The DoI is not law, your ignorant implication none withstanding. Don't you know ANYTHING?

Agreed. The Declaration of Independence was just that, a declaration, not binding law. It proclaimed the United States of America to be a free nation, and nothing more. The law that stands today is the Supreme Court decision of Roe v. Wade, which defined human life to begin at birth when the child takes its first breath. Before that, it is not protected under American law, nor is it a legal person.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

straw man wrote: steen wrote: If there is one big enemy of America, one big threat to who we are as a national identity, then it is the pro-lifers...

Yeah, the biggest threat ever to happen to this country...

:roll:

I'm sorry, but haven't you been bitching about people making hyberbolic claims lately? Its a psychology term you can look it up. Projection. Its a mental defense mechanism of those in strong denial. You project your issues onto others and dont even know youre doing it. you can watch him lie while calling someone a liar in the same sentence, and accuse them of hyperbole while condemning everyone whos religious at the same time. Its really amazing Ive never seen a case as bad as his.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote:
So to be pro-life is to advocate the fall of democracy? no just a change of laws like i said in my last post.

Quote: Its really amazing Ive never seen a case as bad as his. and people complain about sailor moon when ther are toerags like steen out there.

Quote: The DoI is not law, your ignorant implication none withstanding. Don't you know ANYTHING? then where does the govenment base its operations od govenment from. The declaration says a bunch of stuff that is used in laws all the time and numerous court descisions use the DoI as a legal Document. Any professor of govern,ent will tell you that it is a legal documant.

Quote: Pro-life is inherently anti-democracy, anti-American, trying to violate the US Constitution. Pro death people such as yourself steen are inherently anti democracy cause you support the mass killings of unborn abaies, anto american cause you dont want to give rights to the very young. And you wish to violate the constittuion by taking the life away form unborn abies. You cannot say anything. You can claim all you want till you are blue in the face but until you begin to stop trolling no one, not even your mithet will take you seriously.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7781

Plodder wrote: where does the govenment base its operations od govenment from.

The United States Constitution, which is the successor to the Articles of Confederation. The Declaration of Independence does not lay out the basis of any government, it only proclaims that the American colonies are no longer under British rule.

Plodder wrote: The declaration says a bunch of stuff that is used in laws all the time and numerous court descisions use the DoI as a legal Document. Any professor of govern,ent will tell you that it is a legal documant.

It is a legal document that says we are not longer a part of the British empire, other than that, it states nothing about American law. On top of that, if any political science professor would say that, then cite one.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: Quote: The DoI is not law, your ignorant implication none withstanding. Don't you know ANYTHING? then where does the govenment base its operations od govenment from. That would be the US Constitution. Perhaps you have heard about it?

Quote: The declaration says a bunch of stuff that is used in laws all the time and numerous court descisions use the DoI as a legal Document. Prove your lie.

Quote: Any professor of govern,ent will tell you that it is a legal documant. The DoI is NOT a US legal code. It is not US law. Any lie you spin to deny this is merely exposing you as a liar.

Quote: Quote: Pro-life is inherently anti-democracy, anti-American, trying to violate the US Constitution. Pro death people such as yourself I am not "pro-death," your lies none withstanding.

Quote: steen are inherently anti democracy cause you support the mass killings of unborn abaies, You are lying.

Quote: anto american cause you dont want to give rights to the very young. Another lie. gee, you sure lie a lot.

Quote: And you wish to violate the constittuion by taking the life away form unborn abies. Another lie. Are you at all able to post without lying? It seems like you are not, that you are a pathological liar. Or it is some kind of icky and gross fetish where you get your rocks off by being publicly humiliated and proven a liar time after time.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5146 Location: Boston, MA

Izzibeth wrote: you will notice a big difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers.

pro-choicers believe that whatever decision you make is neither "right" nor "wrong". it is a decision and in life, you make decisions, many of which you later reflect on and find out whether they were "right" or "wrong" for you.

pro-lifers are "right". no matter what. and you are "wrong" for disagreeing with them. there is no deciding for yourself what is "right" or "wrong" based on the choices you have made in life because you are "WRONG" and they are "RIGHT". there is a key link between pro-lifers and those who base all their beliefs on their religion. they are always "right" and you are always "wrong" unless of course .. you agree with everything they have to say.

You have drawn the boundaries far too wide.

Pro Life people believe they are RIGHT about abortion being wrong because it terminates a human life, not everything, just that. And since it terminates a human life it ought not be done.

Most Pro choice people either ignore or deny that a human life is terminated and concentrate not on the actual choice that is made but some nebulous right to make choices which does not exist in wide variety of other areas in life like drugs, alcohol, driving, etc. etc.. The reason they don't want to discuss whether terminating a human life is right or wrong is because that is not a winning argument, that is why proabortion became "pro choice" in the first place, (See newspeak Orwell's 1984)

Society decides what is right and wrong and enacts things into law to enforce those decisons. In the case of abortion Roe was a bad legal decision even by many who believe abortion should be legal. Legality does not mean something is right (slavery, segregation, women' vote etc. etc.).

In the case of abortion while most Americans do believe it ought not be made illegal 65% believe it ought to be further restricted. So the whole issue is not as black and white as either polarized side would like to think.

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

Izzibeth wrote: pro-lifers are "right". no matter what. and you are "wrong" for disagreeing with them.

I've noticed plenty of this attitude on BOTH sides of the coin.

tlynn1974 · Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 5

I've got it! Instead of pro-life, we'll call them pro-welfare because we all know that rich women who want/need an abortion will be able to get one. The pro-life stance will only prevent lower income women from having an abortion, which would include those on welfare.

Or, what if we call them pro-hypocrite because I wonder how many of them would be willing to adopt some of these children they insist on bringing into the world - including the children addicted to drugs and alcohol - because they refuse to listen to the woman who is saying that she is not ready to mother a child. Yes, she should have thought about that before having sex, but she didn't. Maybe focus on education instead of forcing a woman to carry a child.

Or maybe we call them pro-death because many don't believe in abortion even to spare the life of the mother. They feel it is up to them to determine if a man should lose his wife or any preceding children should lose their mother because abortion is wrong PERIOD! We will save this fetus even if it kills her...I mean us! :roll:

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: I've got it! Instead of pro-life, we'll call them pro-welfare because we all know that rich women who want/need an abortion will be able to get one Its not the unborn human's fault the born humans have screwed up their planet so badly.

Abortion is ending the life of an individual human being. Who cares about the economic consequences and difficulties of not killing them? Maybe there are other ways from preventing the need for abortions, instead of saying its a "right to choose" enforce the fact that there are consequences for peoples actions. You are only free to do so much, and ending the life of a human individual being should not be considered a choice at all. If you doubt the fact that an embryo is a human individual, I can provide quotes from people much smarter than both of us in the biology field. I can produce a chart of the developmental stages and lay out for you the constant process of life, starting from a single cell. No one is questioning if an embryo is a human life in the scientific community.

The question is, when do you assign value to the human organism itself? The question is really a trick question as such. Value is artificial, and subjective. If this organism is indeed a human individual, which scientifically it is, you can not decide its value. It must be given the same rights as any other human individual because of this fact. Until you can prove it is not a human organism or "human being", until you can prove it is not alive, value can not be placed on it. No more so than a value can be determined for someone who is born. All human individuals are given the right to live yet we as the born attatch a little clause that says "well unless youre unborn".

Its time to recognize that the right thing to do may be hard, but must be met with equally hard work.

tlynn1974 · Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 5

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: I've got it! Instead of pro-life, we'll call them pro-welfare because we all know that rich women who want/need an abortion will be able to get one Its not the unborn human's fault the born humans have screwed up their planet so badly.

Abortion is ending the life of an individual human being. Who cares about the economic consequences and difficulties of not killing them? Maybe there are other ways from preventing the need for abortions, instead of saying its a "right to choose" enforce the fact that there are consequences for peoples actions. You are only free to do so much, and ending the life of a human individual being should not be considered a choice at all. If you doubt the fact that an embryo is a human individual, I can provide quotes from people much smarter than both of us in the biology field. I can produce a chart of the developmental stages and lay out for you the constant process of life, starting from a single cell. No one is questioning if an embryo is a human life in the scientific community.

The question is, when do you assign value to the human organism itself? The question is really a trick question as such. Value is artificial, and subjective. If this organism is indeed a human individual, which scientifically it is, you can not decide its value. It must be given the same rights as any other human individual because of this fact. Until you can prove it is not a human organism or "human being", until you can prove it is not alive, value can not be placed on it. No more so than a value can be determined for someone who is born. All human individuals are given the right to live yet we as the born attatch a little clause that says "well unless youre unborn".

Its time to recognize that the right thing to do may be hard, but must be met with equally hard work.

Let me clarify a little. Many people who are pro-life are conservative and have this "pull yourself up by the bootstrap" mentality. This means they are not huge advocates of welfare. The first part of my statement is really geared towards that thinking. However, being pro-life is discriminating against poor women. As I said, a rich woman who wants an abortion will get an abortion.

You speak of hard work, but I wonder how many kids you have adopted or even fostered. You are very outspoken with your views on abortion, but that will not help the kids being abused in a overwhelmed foster care system. That will not help the hundreds of children waiting to be adopted. How many Americans are adopting "perfect" children from overseas instead of being willing to take some of the "not so perfect" children here? What do you think will happen to these children that are born because their mother did not have access to an abortion? Do you think the mother will all of a sudden change her ways or do you think we will have more stories about children being found in dumpsters?

While I do not advocate abortion and I hope that I will never be in the situation where I feel I have to have one, it is my body and I (and every other woman) should have that choice.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: While I do not advocate abortion and I hope that I will never be in the situation where I feel I have to have one, it is my body and I (and every other woman) should have that choice. Wrong, As I explained, it is not your body. After conception, there is another "body" or being inside you. Be it a single cell, or fully formed fetus. It is the same thing all along, a human individual organism.

Carlin · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject:

Before reading this post, I was ambivolent on how I felt about abortion. After reading this thread, I have decided that choice is essential to our freedoms. I believe if people are against having abortions, they should not have one, but if somebody makes a mistake and feels they cannot be good parents, then they should do what they feel the need to do. Thank you.

Obviously I'm being facetious. Abortion is an issue that people feel very strongly about. I was once pro-life, now am pro-choice. I understand both sides of this old coin. What's imortant is not looking at those on the other side of you as stupid or evil. Nobody here is evil and wants to cause harm to the world with their stance on this issue. This isn't a black and white issue. It's not so clear which is right and which is wrong. And I assure you it is a never ending debate as well. 500 years after we all die, people will still be debating this issue with extra-terrestrial beings from red glaxies and blue galaxies. Neither of which, are definitively wrong or right, they just feel their say matters.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: However, being pro-life is discriminating against poor women. As I said, a rich woman who wants an abortion will get an abortion.
And should be brought to justice for her actions. Rich people get away with murder too, a regrettable reality. Hardship is no excuse to condone killing an innocent human life.

Quote: You speak of hard work, but I wonder how many kids you have adopted or even fostered. Adoption can not be the solution to abortion. It has to come from education and availability of controceptives.
That being said, my personal life has no relevence to this debate.
I could of had an abortion myself and still be here arguing against it.

Quote: You are very outspoken with your views on abortion, but that will not help the kids being abused in a overwhelmed foster care system An unfortunate situation and should be addressed with equal ferocity as abortion.

Quote: How many Americans are adopting "perfect" children from overseas instead of being willing to take some of the "not so perfect" children here? Irrelevent, does not justify killing humans.

Quote: What do you think will happen to these children that are born because their mother did not have access to an abortion Life is a gamble. This does not justify robbign someone of a chance to make the best of what we who are born have screwed up so badly.

Quote: Do you think the mother will all of a sudden change her ways or do you think we will have more stories about children being found in dumpsters?
Declaring murder illegal does not prevent all murders. Abortion isnt as clear cut an issue to the ignorant masses and they will be more popular than they should be. This does not mean the unborn human shouldnt have equal protection under our laws.