Political Crossfire Forums

[garyd]

There are for Gospel texts that are absolute crucial in understanding Holy Scripture in this thread I will attempt to detail the first of these which is the true story of the rich young ruler. I do this because this is one of the most frequently understood and most poorly delineated texts in the Gospels and simultaneously the most crucial. I will also point out some arrant interpretations and explain why it think them so.

Let us begin at the beginning:

"Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life."

Now there is a peculiar question if I've ever heard one. What can you do to inherit anything? There is only one true answer here and that is that one must be born or adopted into the correct family, in this case the family of God and one's adoptive state was determined long before one was ever born.

But another question occurs almost immediately to the astute reader. why on earth has this man ,this rich young ruler, a man of substance and power with in ancient Israel sought out this itinerant preacher out in the middle of no where? There is only one possibility here as well something is bothering him no doubt he has put this same question to the local Rabbis among those over whom he rules but for some reason their answers haven't satisfied him. I submit to you that the Holy spirit has got a hold of this man and will not let go and that is what has brought him to Jesus.

Jesus now responds:

"Why do you call me good know you not that only God is good?"

Some here argue that with this Jesus is denying his divinity but this isn't necessarily so and given that He corrected neither Peter confession of Faith nor Thomas' far balder statement that really isn't likely. No I think it rather likely that what He was doing was trying to get one whom he knew as one of his children to make a similar confession but getting it not he moves on with:

"You know the commandments..."

A none to broad assumption since almost every one in Israel would have know them) and here he gives the second table of the Ten Commandments, those dealing with our relationship with our fellow human beings and the Rich young ruler looks happy and responds:

"All these I have kept from my youth."

Now at this point all too many authorities tell us that here in the Rich young ruler lied and yet Christ's immediate response to this is to love him the more! Or so it says in Mark's account of their meeting. Now let me pose a question would the response of the God who condemned liars and lying a hundred times or more in proverbs alone be one of love or of correction? And remember that to 'keep' these things does not imply that he has done them perfectly no rather they are his Gold standard that is the measuring stick by which he judges all his actions.

Now Christ rolling the first table of the Ten commandments into one sentence tells the rich young ruler:

"One thing you lack, go and sell all you have and give the proceeds to the poor and come follow me"

Now the rich young ruler goes in one sentence from almost joyfully to sorrow and walks away but I believe this isn't a permanent situation and in fact neither did many in the early church who believed this Rich young ruler to be none other than Nicodemus a man who did eventually give up everything to follow Christ.

Why? What is the rich young ruler's problem is he a greed head as all too many teach? I think not for he could not have kept the second table of the ten commandments were he a greed head. In fact I suspect the rich young ruler's problem wasn't the money so much as what that money brought him!

I suspect that the rich young ruler, was down right loved by the people over whom he ruled. He gave to all the right charities helped the widows and orphans, judged as righteously among disputants as a man can, and did all things as well as possible. He was much esteemed. And that you see is the crux of his problem.

It isn't the money that troubles him so much as the loss of prestige. Will his friends still like him if he is suddenly poor? Will his subjects still love and adore Him? He doesn't know or perhaps he thinks he does and doesn't care for the answer. Money you see is full of snares even for those who use it wisely and well. And it is this that Jesus addresses as he speaks next to his disciples:

"How hard it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heave. I tell you truly it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven."

At this teaching the disciples are amazed and not surprisingly so for in there society those reputedly closest to God always had money, the Scribes, the Pharisees, the priests were all rich men by the standards of that day and now thee mentor and teacher is standing there earlier belief on its head. Is it any wonder then that they ask:

"Who then can be saved?"

Many here teach that the needle to which Christ had referred was the night gate sometimes found in many ancient cities which was a long and difficult passage which allowed caravans to enter after dark provided the camel driver was skilled enough but would have prevented an attack upon the city by its enemies. Yet Christ answer to the disciples query makes this a grievous error for his response is:

"With man this is impossible but through God all things are possible."

In other words you can't save yourself. You were either already saved the day you were born or you never will be saved.

[cap'n queasy]

I'm interested in your suppostion that this rich young man was Nicodemus. I had never thought of that before.

What makes you think so? Wasn't Nicodemus an older man?

[Mailech]

First off not all the Pharisees where rich, look into Hillel the Elder.

Second, so only those who G-d chooses to save may be saved. So G-d chooses to send the rest of us to hell for eternity through no fault of our own?

Wow some Christians view G-d in the most sadistic of terms.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Second, so only those who G-d chooses to save may be saved. So G-d chooses to send the rest of us to hell for eternity through no fault of our own?


Yes, He does choose. You don't choose. And one can hardly say they aren't chosen by no fault of their own. I imagine YHWH chooses justly.

You say it is the following of the Law that gives salvation.

But are you making the sacrifices in the temple that are commanded? Are you aborving the Sabbath and Jubilee years?

Or are you cherry picking which laws have to be followed and which don't?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: First off not all the Pharisees where rich, look into Hillel the Elder.

However, we know Nicodemus was a wealthy man, who BTW was a Pharisee that accepted Y'shua as his Lord.

Whether or not other Pharisees were wealthy or not is irrelevant.

[garyd]

That may be true but they were usually better off than the average joe almost always.

And if You would mention Hillel the Elder then sir you should heed his statement in the Bible in the Book of Acts.

[connermt]

garyd wrote: There are for Gospel texts that are absolute crucial in understanding Holy Scripture in this thread I will attempt to detail the first of these which is the true story of the rich young ruler. I do this because this is one of the most frequently understood and most poorly delineated texts in the Gospels and simultaneously the most crucial. I will also point out some arrant interpretations and explain why it think them so.

Let us begin at the beginning:

"Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life."

Now there is a peculiar question if I've ever heard one. What can you do to inherit anything? There is only one true answer here and that is that one must be born or adopted into the correct family, in this case the family of God and one's adoptive state was determined long before one was ever born.

But another question occurs almost immediately to the astute reader. why on earth has this man ,this rich young ruler, a man of substance and power with in ancient Israel sought out this itinerant preacher out in the middle of no where? There is only one possibility here as well something is bothering him no doubt he has put this same question to the local Rabbis among those over whom he rules but for some reason their answers haven't satisfied him. I submit to you that the Holy spirit has got a hold of this man and will not let go and that is what has brought him to Jesus.

Jesus now responds:

"Why do you call me good know you not that only God is good?"

Some here argue that with this Jesus is denying his divinity but this isn't necessarily so and given that He corrected neither Peter confession of Faith nor Thomas' far balder statement that really isn't likely. No I think it rather likely that what He was doing was trying to get one whom he knew as one of his children to make a similar confession but getting it not he moves on with:

"You know the commandments..."

A none to broad assumption since almost every one in Israel would have know them) and here he gives the second table of the Ten Commandments, those dealing with our relationship with our fellow human beings and the Rich young ruler looks happy and responds:

"All these I have kept from my youth."

Now at this point all too many authorities tell us that here in the Rich young ruler lied and yet Christ's immediate response to this is to love him the more! Or so it says in Mark's account of their meeting. Now let me pose a question would the response of the God who condemned liars and lying a hundred times or more in proverbs alone be one of love or of correction? And remember that to 'keep' these things does not imply that he has done them perfectly no rather they are his Gold standard that is the measuring stick by which he judges all his actions.

Now Christ rolling the first table of the Ten commandments into one sentence tells the rich young ruler:

"One thing you lack, go and sell all you have and give the proceeds to the poor and come follow me"

Now the rich young ruler goes in one sentence from almost joyfully to sorrow and walks away but I believe this isn't a permanent situation and in fact neither did many in the early church who believed this Rich young ruler to be none other than Nicodemus a man who did eventually give up everything to follow Christ.

Why? What is the rich young ruler's problem is he a greed head as all too many teach? I think not for he could not have kept the second table of the ten commandments were he a greed head. In fact I suspect the rich young ruler's problem wasn't the money so much as what that money brought him!

I suspect that the rich young ruler, was down right loved by the people over whom he ruled. He gave to all the right charities helped the widows and orphans, judged as righteously among disputants as a man can, and did all things as well as possible. He was much esteemed. And that you see is the crux of his problem.

It isn't the money that troubles him so much as the loss of prestige. Will his friends still like him if he is suddenly poor? Will his subjects still love and adore Him? He doesn't know or perhaps he thinks he does and doesn't care for the answer. Money you see is full of snares even for those who use it wisely and well. And it is this that Jesus addresses as he speaks next to his disciples:

"How hard it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heave. I tell you truly it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven."

At this teaching the disciples are amazed and not surprisingly so for in there society those reputedly closest to God always had money, the Scribes, the Pharisees, the priests were all rich men by the standards of that day and now thee mentor and teacher is standing there earlier belief on its head. Is it any wonder then that they ask:

"Who then can be saved?"

Many here teach that the needle to which Christ had referred was the night gate sometimes found in many ancient cities which was a long and difficult passage which allowed caravans to enter after dark provided the camel driver was skilled enough but would have prevented an attack upon the city by its enemies. Yet Christ answer to the disciples query makes this a grievous error for his response is:

"With man this is impossible but through God all things are possible."

In other words you can't save yourself. You were either already saved the day you were born or you never will be saved.

Interesting spin/idea of the 'rich young ruler' story. :tu:

[Mailech]

garyd wrote: That may be true but they were usually better off than the average joe almost always.

And if You would mention Hillel the Elder then sir you should heed his statement in the Bible in the Book of Acts.

Hillel said alot of things, to which are you refering.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Second, so only those who G-d chooses to save may be saved. So G-d chooses to send the rest of us to hell for eternity through no fault of our own?


Yes, He does choose. You don't choose. And one can hardly say they aren't chosen by no fault of their own. I imagine YHWH chooses justly. So G-d chooses who is saved and who is not. We have no choice but to sin, since that is part of the nature that G-d gave us. So unless He chooses to save us we have no recourse. So unless He chooses to save you, He has in effect damned you to eternal hell because He made you in a way that you cannot help but sin. So in effect G-d randomly chooses who He will burn in hell and who He will save, right? If you say He chooses justly then based on what?

Quote: You say it is the following of the Law that gives salvation.

But are you making the sacrifices in the temple that are commanded? Are you aborving the Sabbath and Jubilee years?

Or are you cherry picking which laws have to be followed and which don't?
I am not cherry picking, if there was a Temple, I would give sacrifices. But since G-d said that you are not allowed to give sacrifices outside of the Temple, well then it would be wrong of me to do so, no?
As for the Sabbatical. I do keep it where it is applicable. But seeing that I am not a farmer and do not live in Isreal, well then it doesn't have too much relevance. If I was living in Israel, then I would keep the Sabbatical year as it was applicable. I don't cherry pick, but you just lop off most of the branches.

[John]

Quote: So in effect G-d randomly chooses

That's where your understanding goes astray.

[connermt]

John wrote: Quote: So in effect G-d randomly chooses

That's where your understanding goes astray.

Does anyone know how God chooses?

[Mailech]

John wrote: Quote: So in effect G-d randomly chooses

That's where your understanding goes astray.

Give me an insite why would G-d choose to save some and let the others burn in eternal hell?

[mattwa33193]

garyd wrote: That may be true but they were usually better off than the average joe almost always.

And if You would mention Hillel the Elder then sir you should heed his statement in the Bible in the Book of Acts.

Pharisees valued knowledge and intelligence above all. Some of the richest and poorest men in Jerusalem were Pharisees, but all of them were smart.

Saducees valued only money and power.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I would give sacrifices. But since G-d said that you are not allowed to give sacrifices outside of the Temple, well then it would be wrong of me to do so, no?


Abel didn't sacrifice in the Temple, Abraham didn't sacrifice in the Temple. At any rate, that changed, so yes it would. That kind of leaves you in a sticky situation if you practice Judaism. I refer you to Daniel 9:24-27 as to why the sacrifices were stopped.

The thing is, what were Mount Moriah, the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite, the Tabernacle, and the Temple pictures of?

An unfolding picture of Moschiach and how our sins can be propitiated by the Grace of YHWH.

[garyd]

Thjanks for asking for the easy in both of your questions zealous one.

What did Hillel say in Acts? Merely that If Christianity were of God then nothing they could do would stop it and if it were not of God then they have to do nothing to end it.

Why would God choose some and not others is in fact the wrong question as it assumes some are more worthy than others in point of fact no one is worthy of heaven and hell is a place of absolute justice where the punishment fits the crime and the fire is a species of mercy as it takes your mind off far worse things and then again come to think of it what if the fire is actually only symbolic of hell's self inflicted agonies?

Heaven is a place where people go who have received God's wholly undeserved mercy.

I am minded of Jesus response to the Pharisee in (I believe Luke though it might have been John) in which a pharisee addressed Jesus saying in effect "Don't you have any idea who and what that woman is?

Jesus simple reply was "Those who are forgiven much love much "for she had washed Jesus feet with her tears and dried them with her hair.

It is amazing to note though number of God's best known followers started out as something very different in Life. Paul was on His way to Damascus to kill and torture more Christians at the behest of the Sanhedrin when the Holy Spirit knock him for a loop. Augustine was not of much different character than Bill Clinton before God changed him and made hime the greatest Christian apologist of His day. On the other hand Judas Iscariot was the only one of the Disciples that never seemed to get into trouble on any level with Jesus until the night of the betrayal.

[Mailech]

garyd wrote: Why would God choose some and not others is in fact the wrong question as it assumes some are more worthy than others in point of fact no one is worthy of heaven and hell is a place of absolute justice where the punishment fits the crime and the fire is a species of mercy as it takes your mind off far worse things and then again come to think of it what if the fire is actually only symbolic of hell's self inflicted agonies?

Heaven is a place where people go who have received God's wholly undeserved mercy. Ok so let me rephrase my question since you did not answer it. How does G-d decide who to give his undeserved mercy to and who to not give it to and let them rot due to circumstances that He created?

[Duchifas]

garyd wrote: What did Hillel say in Acts? Merely that If Christianity were of God then nothing they could do would stop it and if it were not of God then they have to do nothing to end it.

Are you sure he said that?

As far as I know he lived in the first century BCE, and died, at latest, in 10 CE.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder

So I am not sure he said anything about Christianity, considering Christianity was not around yet.

[John]

Mailech wrote: garyd wrote: Why would God choose some and not others is in fact the wrong question as it assumes some are more worthy than others in point of fact no one is worthy of heaven and hell is a place of absolute justice where the punishment fits the crime and the fire is a species of mercy as it takes your mind off far worse things and then again come to think of it what if the fire is actually only symbolic of hell's self inflicted agonies?

Heaven is a place where people go who have received God's wholly undeserved mercy. Ok so let me rephrase my question since you did not answer it. How does G-d decide who to give his undeserved mercy to and who to not give it to and let them rot due to circumstances that He created?



25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"HE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

read in context here..

[Mailech]

Ah so you are saying there is no way of knowing why according to you G-d randomly chooses whom to save and whom to burn in eternal hell through no fault of our own.

John, how about all the times that you said that you just have to let the spirit in. In reality, it is only when G-d wants to give you the spirit that you get it. Giving us a false hope, not nice John.

[John]

Mailech wrote: Ah so you are saying there is no way of knowing why according to you G-d randomly chooses whom to save and whom to burn in eternal hell through no fault of our own.

John, how about all the times that you said that you just have to let the spirit in. In reality, it is only when G-d wants to give you the spirit that you get it. Giving us a false hope, not nice John.

No. there is no hint of randomness. God chooses...that's not random. I don't understand how He chooses...but I do trust that the method is just and good.

My ability to believe is proof that God has chosen me...and yes, I could have never been able to believe without the working of the Holy Spirit in my heart...it just wasn't in me...the ability to believe the Truth comes from God not me.

Why did God choose to open my eyes? I dunno. I think it's because God gives us all the opportunity and works with us with the Holy Spirit but knows who will and will not receive Him in Truth before hand. Actually I think it has to do with being willing to give up your free will. Admitting that you can’t do the work and that only He can be your Salvation in every single way. Basically God gave us free will in that some would turn that free will back over to Him and trust completely in His will.