Political Crossfire Forums

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24187

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Does anyone other than me feel intense homoerotic vibes coming off John's avatar? I know it's supposed to be serious and dramatic and stuff, but that's not what I'm getting at all.

"That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,

deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

Thanks for reminding me that I'm f**ked up for thinking that a picture of Jesus embracing an attractive young man from behind, coyly exposing a little bit of flesh, is homoerotic. How tight are those pants? And that semi-orgasmic look on his face that's supposed to be contrition or something? Please. This is all wrong. It's making Jesus out to be totally dominant, when we all know he was a sub.

Yes, I'm impure and it comes from within. You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

I didn't know you were so fond of Jesus.

Do you want me to change it?

Of course not. That avatar isn't in the least bit offensive to me. "Homoerotic" is not a complaint, it's an observation, and it's only half-serious. You of course have the right to use whatever you want as your avatar. It would be poor form to actually b**** about a picture of Christ.

Meh...I've been thinking about changing it anyways. People asked questions so it served it's purpose.

The Central Scrutinizer · Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:07 am Post subject:

John wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Does anyone other than me feel intense homoerotic vibes coming off John's avatar? I know it's supposed to be serious and dramatic and stuff, but that's not what I'm getting at all.

"That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,

deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

Thanks for reminding me that I'm f**ked up for thinking that a picture of Jesus embracing an attractive young man from behind, coyly exposing a little bit of flesh, is homoerotic. How tight are those pants? And that semi-orgasmic look on his face that's supposed to be contrition or something? Please. This is all wrong. It's making Jesus out to be totally dominant, when we all know he was a sub.

Yes, I'm impure and it comes from within. You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

I didn't know you were so fond of Jesus.

Do you want me to change it?

Of course not. That avatar isn't in the least bit offensive to me. "Homoerotic" is not a complaint, it's an observation, and it's only half-serious. You of course have the right to use whatever you want as your avatar. It would be poor form to actually b**** about a picture of Christ.

Meh...I've been thinking about changing it anyways. People asked questions so it served it's purpose.

Ah. You cropped out the "Forgiven" on the bottom, am I right?

PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd · Joined: 28 Apr 2006 Posts: 29

All I really want to get figured out is do those of you who are christian think that what you believe in make perfect sense to you, cuz if it didnt, why would you believe in it?

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: All I really want to get figured out is do those of you who are christian think that what you believe in make perfect sense to you, cuz if it didnt, why would you believe in it?

Yes. 8:)

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5246 Location: Boston, MA

Gryff1nd0r wrote: PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: I have somewhat touched on this topic before but i want to go into more detail. I used to be a Christian when i was a little younger but i could never really grab onto it. My question is do people who are fully "christian" think about what they believe in, or do they just need something to believe in? I am begining to think its that they just need something to believe in because they are scared of what comes after this life, they need answers and more importantly, a reason. tell me what you guys think.

I agree with Gilbert, but I think that you are correct about A LOT of Christians. From my observations, many Christians are Christians simply because they were born into it. They never question anything about their religion, and they follow it only as long as it doesn't inconvenience them.

I think that they remain "religious" often because of fear, but also just because we live in a world where people are expected to identify with a religion, so... why not Christianity? All the cool people are doing it ya know. :wink:

Had this been the way the question was stated, had I replied at all it would have been in agreement. There is NO question that some portion of Christianity, like any philosophy or religion believe it on a superficial and therefore false level.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5246 Location: Boston, MA

PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: All I really want to get figured out is do those of you who are christian think that what you believe in make perfect sense to you, cuz if it didnt, why would you believe in it?

This is self evident.

Why not attempt to figure out what it is that Christianity ACTUALLY means and represents instead of assuming it is as shallow and meaningless as are some portion of its membership.

You accuse some believers of superficiality and taking the easy route and yet you yourself reveal less depth in your question than those you accuse to in their "answer".

Can you tell I am growing tired of the assumptions by so many critical of religion that those of faith must somehow be either stupid, lazy or fools to believe. While THEY are smarter not because they have more evidence or a better philosophy but because they have THEIR philosophy.

How about some substance to an argument for a change instead of what amounts to an intellectual NYAH, NYAH.

Sorry might be the weather here in New England and the fact the Sox lost to the Evil Empire last night.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8838

These threads tend to strike a nerve with me...

While I am personally not a Christian, or a member of any organized church, I still respect those who are. It is extremely unfair to try and force someone to justify their faith. Faith and religion are things that the individual can decide only for themselves, and no one has any right to try and justify that, it simply is. Faith cannot be controlled, religion cannot be chosen, it simply is. And atheist is not an atheist because he chooses to not believe in God, he/she simply doesn't. Much in the same way a Christian does not choose to believe in Jesus, he/she simply does.

You are not going to get a clear answer when attempting to justify someone's faith, at best you will receive a "Because" for an answer, and nothing more. God cannot be proven or disproven, so it comes down to the individual to decide for themselves what exactly they believe.

So stop trying to "trick" a Christian into justifying their faith, and simply respect it. You do not have to agree with it, but at least respect the faith of your fellow man. Like I said, I am not a member of any organized religion, and I follow my own faith, but I can still respect those who believe otherwise, just as I would expect that same respect from others.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8838

Gilbert1908 wrote: Sorry might be the weather here in New England and the fact the Sox lost to the Evil Empire last night.

Yeah, but the White Sox still lead the Central Division, so all is well in Major League Baseball. 8:)

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: All I really want to get figured out is do those of you who are christian think that what you believe in make perfect sense to you, cuz if it didnt, why would you believe in it?

From my experience, when christians (that I have known) see something that they don't understand, doesn't make sense or can't have sufficiently explained, they just 'take it on faith' to be true (or false depending on the situation).
To use an old expression: "You don't have to know how a car works to be able to drive it." I think the same can be said of chrsitianity. The scientific community has theories about how the world started. They don't know exactly HOW ro WHY, but that is their belief. I think the same can be said about chrsitinaity.Now is that a good thing, a bad thing or nothing? I guess it depends on how one looks at it.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5246 Location: Boston, MA

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Sorry might be the weather here in New England and the fact the Sox lost to the Evil Empire last night.

Yeah, but the White Sox still lead the Central Division, so all is well in Major League Baseball. 8:)

Now there is a team that DOES NOT require blind faith....those guys are GOOOOOD!

Addison · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 126

Excuse me, but this is a direct answer to the original quote, and I will neither reference, nor have I read, all posts originating between the original post and my own. If I say something that has already been said--sorry.

Originally, the faith was not for fear of hell or what comes after life. This gets into the parts of the faith herebefore untouched at this forums. The Christian faith had, in its beginning (Judaism), no concept of an afterlife. Things were done for the pure fact that they needed to be done, and it was right in doing this. If there is no after-life, they had no regrets. The original word for their afterlife was She'ol--alternatively defined as "Grave" or "deep pit/abyss." So, if you think we just go and rot in the ground when we die, your on the same lines as early Hebrews. Although several mentionings of Heaven are made in the Old Testament, the primary thought processes (see David's Psalms) are that there is nothing after this life. Our primary ideas of Hell come from Zoroastrianism (founded by Zoroaster, in southern Iran [I believe]), the Greeks and Romans. Zoroaster was the primary conceiver of the idea of an ultimate evil that counterbalances the good. Thus we have Satan as an adversary of God, when, originally, a Satan was a class of angel used to persecute man to prove him good or evil (thus, Satan means "accuser, adversary" in Greek). From the Greeks, we obtain the Elysian Fields (Heaven), The Shades (Purgatory), and Tartarus (a fiery, fiery Hell). Though we do believe now in a Heaven, which was included in much of the Old Testament, there is no basis of thought that supports Hell in the original doctrines of Faith, as told by Solomon and David. Note, if you disagree, Solomon's wisdom is infallible and true, as it was a Mandate of Heaven (given to him by God to be great and correct when he had a choice between it and riches/land).
Thusly, there is no Hell, only Heaven and the abyss. This works rather well, as both atheists and theists are right. If you're a theist, you think you're going to Heaven, and you are. If you're an atheist, you think there is nothing after this for you except an abyssal unconsciousness, and you are also correct. No hell is present in original Christian doctrine.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man in the Bible is allegorical, no Hell is intended.

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

Addison wrote: Excuse me, but this is a direct answer to the original quote, and I will neither reference, nor have I read, all posts originating between the original post and my own. If I say something that has already been said--sorry.

Originally, the faith was not for fear of hell or what comes after life. This gets into the parts of the faith herebefore untouched at this forums. The Christian faith had, in its beginning (Judaism), no concept of an afterlife. Things were done for the pure fact that they needed to be done, and it was right in doing this. If there is no after-life, they had no regrets. The original word for their afterlife was She'ol--alternatively defined as "Grave" or "deep pit/abyss." So, if you think we just go and rot in the ground when we die, your on the same lines as early Hebrews. Although several mentionings of Heaven are made in the Old Testament, the primary thought processes (see David's Psalms) are that there is nothing after this life. Our primary ideas of Hell come from Zoroastrianism (founded by Zoroaster, in southern Iran [I believe]), the Greeks and Romans. Zoroaster was the primary conceiver of the idea of an ultimate evil that counterbalances the good. Thus we have Satan as an adversary of God, when, originally, a Satan was a class of angel used to persecute man to prove him good or evil (thus, Satan means "accuser, adversary" in Greek). From the Greeks, we obtain the Elysian Fields (Heaven), The Shades (Purgatory), and Tartarus (a fiery, fiery Hell). Though we do believe now in a Heaven, which was included in much of the Old Testament, there is no basis of thought that supports Hell in the original doctrines of Faith, as told by Solomon and David. Note, if you disagree, Solomon's wisdom is infallible and true, as it was a Mandate of Heaven (given to him by God to be great and correct when he had a choice between it and riches/land).
Thusly, there is no Hell, only Heaven and the abyss. This works rather well, as both atheists and theists are right. If you're a theist, you think you're going to Heaven, and you are. If you're an atheist, you think there is nothing after this for you except an abyssal unconsciousness, and you are also correct. No hell is present in original Christian doctrine.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man in the Bible is allegorical, no Hell is intended.

Assuming the above is true (I don't know as I am not versed in the history of the christian faith, so I am not disagreeing or agreeing with this point, but:), this shows that many christians don't know the history of their faith & therefore, don't truely know the truth of God.
Which is frightening IMO

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24187

Quote: The Christian faith had, in its beginning (Judaism), no concept of an afterlife.

Daniel 12
1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

3"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5246 Location: Boston, MA

John wrote: Quote: The Christian faith had, in its beginning (Judaism), no concept of an afterlife.

Daniel 12
1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

3"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Here is the most interesting aspect of the author of the "no hell" comments who by the way is also pro abortion.

He claims he is an ordained Catholic priest whose Bishop assigned him to a, I think he said, Methodist Church because there were no openings in Catholic Churches. He also claimed he was ordained after completing his "catholic" preparation for the priesthood at of course the well known Presbyterian Seminary at Princeton.

OK so lets review a poster who claims to be a Catholic priest assigned by a Catholic Bishop to a Methodist Church (because we all know about the over crowded priesthood) and educated at a Presbyterian seminary never attending Catholic seminary, writes that abortion is fine and that there is no hell.

No aside from how funny it all is one need not worry about his being very credible.

Addison · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 126

There are disputes in the Bible about Hell and no afterlife. The Sadducees believed in no afterlife, which is why they are "Sad, you see", as we teach our Sunday School classes. However, David, in many of his Psalms, particularly the third book, agrees with this. Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel reference an afterlife, however not one of fire. Reference "She'ol" again.

And, yes, most Christians have no idea about the huge cultural influences of Zoroastrianism, Latin and Greek cultures, and early Ottomans had on their own religion. For instance, the Christian celebration of Christmas is based on the week long celebration of Saturnalia by the Romans.

Genesis 37:35 (Read all of Genesis 37)

And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into She'ol unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

2 Chronicles 34:28 (Read all of 2 Chronicles 34)

Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to She'ol in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again.

Job 7:9 (Read all of Job 7)

As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

In case that doesn't work completely and entirely, I can continue:

Job 21:32 (Read all of Job 21)

Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Job 30:24 (Read all of Job 30)

Howbeit he will not stretch out his hand to the grave, though they cry in his destruction.
Psalm 6:5 (Read all of Psalm 6)

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the (In Hebrew, She'ol) grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 31:17 (Read all of Psalm 31)

Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
Psalm 88:5 (Read all of Psalm 88)

Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (Read all of Ecclesiastes 9)

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

David and Solomon, both believed as the Sadducees.

Matthew 22:23 (Read all of Matthew 22)

The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

But, in the new covenant, it is said that there is Ressurection after dead, but only for the just. Implying that all die and go to the grave until the ressurection of the just and righteous--see:
Luke 14:14 (Read all of Luke 14)

And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

John 11:25 (Read all of John 11)

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Acts 17:32 (Read all of Acts 17)

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Thus, the Sadducees, (or Zadokites), who were one of the two main Rabbinic sects (the other being Pharisees), taught that there was no ressurection for man. However, in the NT, we see that the New Covenant of Jesus brings the ressurection of the just. But, in all of this, where is hell? All there is is a misinterpretation and cultural assimilation of another civilizations religion which incurred eternal punishment.

Gilbert, the best part is how you bring neither religious enlightenment nor friendly courtesies to any topic I am in. I am not pro-abortion, but if a free country is free, than freedoms must exist--thus Pro-choice does not inherently make me a child murderer. If you have nothing to say of the actual topic, then don't bother.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Gilbert1908 wrote: John wrote: Quote: The Christian faith had, in its beginning (Judaism), no concept of an afterlife.

Daniel 12
1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

3"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Here is the most interesting aspect of the author of the "no hell" comments who by the way is also pro abortion.

He claims he is an ordained Catholic priest whose Bishop assigned him to a, I think he said, Methodist Church because there were no openings in Catholic Churches. He also claimed he was ordained after completing his "catholic" preparation for the priesthood at of course the well known Presbyterian Seminary at Princeton.

OK so lets review a poster who claims to be a Catholic priest assigned by a Catholic Bishop to a Methodist Church (because we all know about the over crowded priesthood) and educated at a Presbyterian seminary never attending Catholic seminary, writes that abortion is fine and that there is no hell.

No aside from how funny it all is one need not worry about his being very credible.

That's a crazy story. :lol:

Yeah, he said that there was no concept of an afterlife and then starts talking about Sheol.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5246 Location: Boston, MA

Addison wrote:

Gilbert, the best part is how you bring neither religious enlightenment nor friendly courtesies to any topic I am in. I am not pro-abortion, but if a free country is free, than freedoms must exist--thus Pro-choice does not inherently make me a child murderer. If you have nothing to say of the actual topic, then don't bother.

I will let those with whom I discuss such subjects all the time decide what my contributions are to this thread.

I have never misrepresented myself. And I have never demeaned some one elses belief by pretending to be a Rabbi, Minister, Priest or Imam etc. and I wanted the people whom I respect for thier passion, sincerity and honesty whether they agree with me or not, to know that you did make such a claim and then argued contrary to Church theology and dogma.

If by stating the truth I have been discourteous I am unwilling to apologize. If there is anything I said that is untrue say so and I will simply reprint the posts in which you made the claims to which I have referred.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Thus, the Sadducees, (or Zadokites), who were one of the two main Rabbinic sects

They also didn't believe in any supernatural occurences and were atheistic, their placement as a rabbinic group pretty much stemmed from the fact that they also happened to live in a theocracy. They were more of a political bloc comprised of secular elites.

Saying they didn't believe in an afterlife is misleading, because they didn't believe any any other supernatural occurences either. Like God.

They were secularist elites in a theocratic system.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: Quote: The Christian faith had, in its beginning (Judaism), no concept of an afterlife.

Daniel 12
1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

3"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
It's arguable as to whether or not what we recognize as "Judaism" is in fact the same religion practiced by the ancient Israelites in the OT, or even by Daniel in Babylon.