Political Crossfire Forums

[garyd]

Part of understanding Christianity is to understand the time line. First and foremost the creation of this universe did not come first. Rather the first Creation was the Book of Life where in are found the names of all the saved.

From this we can derive the following:

1. Salvation is not earned and is by invitation only. That is you are not saved because of what you have done, will do, or are doing, but rather because God for His own purposes chose to save you. And what is that purpose? Not being God I can not say for I am not infinite as is God and all that scripture reveals is something about gratitude (REmember the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair and Jesus' response to the one who questioned him about why he'd even let such a one as her near him?)

2. God saw the cross before Him and knew its cost and why only He could pay that price before He ever said let there be light and spoke those words any way the first act of completely wholely selfless love ever recorded.

3. Then God by one method or the other created the world. That is God spoke and the world was. Ws there a gap between the moment God spoke and the moment the world came to be? The Bible isn't clear and I, for my part beyond the undeniable fact that this world now exists, do not much care.

[LetsGetReal]

God has not pre-destined whether or not we will go to hell or heaven that is by our choice alone. Because he has given us the grace to know him, so in acutuallity he chose us first we just have to accept it. Yet, he does know because he knows us so well that he can map out our life. (Think espinoza's dragon)

[garyd]

Yet, sir Paul Himself directed by God states in one of his Epistles that we are predestined not once but three times.

One cannot choose the one true and living God lest that God by means of the action of the Holy Spirit first changes our heart and if God first Changes our heart then we can do no other.

Heaven is not, sir, merely a commercial enterprise with good deeds as a medium of exchange. Heaven is the greatest gift and the most singular act of mercy ever granted. It is God's grace - that is the implanting of faith in a human heart - that results in Godly works. Said another way Godly works are the result of the joy of a salvation already received.

Examine, if you will, the allegory of the Sheep and the Goats. Notice that the goats have noted every good deed they have ever done and expect recompense for them, a recompense they do not receive. And yet the Sheep seem utterly unaware that they have done anything at all! What is the difference? Only the grace of God for the goats you see have done their deeds with great concern and effort for such things are in reality against their nature and are difficult for them hence they are well remembered by them but the acts are done not out of love but as though they would batter down the gates of heaven by means of those deeds and hence are of no value in the end. The sheep, on the other hand, make no note of their Godly deeds because of the heart changing power of the Holy Spirit these things have become as natural to them as breathing and as unremarkable.

[LetsGetReal]

Yes, but we have to be willing to accept it. God grants his grace to all people, it's just those who accept who will learn to know jesus. I shouldn't have stated whether they will go to heaven or hell, because in the end no one truly knows.

Pre-destination takes away our free will and if I'm correct was paul not talking to christians. I believe he was telling them that the belief in Jesus Christ pre-destines them to eternal salvation.

[garyd]

Free will always acts in opposition to God Be it in the Garden of Eden where in Adam and Eve by their free will did eat the forbidden fruit or in the modern human heart as it looks lustfully upon the scantily clad. It isn't your choice sir that made you a Christian it was God's sovereign act in changing your heart.

You are however correct in that we can never be absolutely sure of our final destination for while we are shrouded in this flesh we are also shrouded in doubt for the flesh longs for that which is not of God and spiritual warfare is a constant. Spiritual warfare is not picketing abortion clinics or proselytizing or handing out fliers or praying for the unsaved rather it is the unceasing battle between the Holy Spirit that inhabits our hearts and the flesh we inhabit.

[cap'n queasy]

The Great Commision is to go out and baptize all Nations in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. If you do not think that you will encounter spiritual forces that would stop this action, I would say you are incorrect. Spiritual warfare takes many forms. On an individual, personal level and a larger public level. But I do agree with your point that it is YHWH who changes our heart. It is not changed by our decisions or our actions.

But the thing to remember is that YHWH is just.

If you make the decision to take Y'shua's teachings seriously it is likely that your name has been written in the Book of Life since the beginning of time IMHO. YHWH knows who is to be saved and who is to not. It is to Him to judge this and no one else.

Another consideration to understand in the apparent paradox between pre-destination and free will is that time only seems to have a linear flow to our very limited human perspective. Past, present and future all exist to YHWH at once. This is why prophecy can exist and is a function of the underlying reality of the cosmos that we do not have the ability to comprehend. Science is just now having an inkling that things are just not how they seem.

IMHO There is no real paradox between free will and and pre-destination. Just an illusory one due to our limited powers of perception.

Interesting subject.

[garyd]

Sorry but Proselytizing - the Great commision is an act of love not a form of spiritual warfare and yea their are forces at work against it but it has little to do with spiritual warfare once you get to the act itself.

By the way one must be aware that no matter how successful one appears to be in the act of prozelytizing the glory is all God's for it is He and He alone acting through the Holy Spirit that changes a person's heart.

Grace again sir is the act of God Changing a Human heart instilling in it belief where there was none before.

[LetsGetReal]

I don't think I'm wording my beliefs right....

Yes, God chose us that is true, but would you not concur that he chooses all of us just some of us accept/let go of control to God, while others don't.

My belief is that God knows everyone so well(since he is omniscient) that he knows who will go to heaven and who will not. But it is not pre-destined. Having no control over your life is fine as long as God is the one in control because he only wants the best, but if him having control and me going to hell just doesn't seem right to me. Which is my basic argument, because if God controlled everyones life aka pre-destined where we would go. Then all would have to go to heaven or does he believe hell is better for others?

[garyd]

God must save everyone precisely why? None of us deserve iheaven in point of fact by the aggragate total of our miserable self directed lives we deserve hell a thousand times over sir.

As I said heaven exists to demonstrate Gods unfailing mercy upon the lost who deserve it not just as Hell demonstrates His absolute Holy Justice and even the fires of hell, if indeed they be real rather symbolic, would be a speicies of mercy as they would distract the impenitent from far worse things such as their own responsibility for their present location.

God wrote the Book of life before the Foundation of the World sir. In it He placed the names of all those whom he would rescue from their fate.

[LetsGetReal]

Did I ever state that we deserve it? I'm stating that if God truly controlled us like mindless drones it wouldn't be just that some go to heaven and some go to hell. Understand, because I can't get any simpler? Our choice is influenced by God 100% but you must realize it is still our choice. I would have never chosen this without God, I would have never seen it with out god, and he might have made me choose it. But, I still chose it.

[LetsGetReal]

You can disagree with me, but at least say you understand where I'm coming from.

[garyd]

YOur Choice was the product of God's action in granting you the gift of faith.

To take credit for an action that once God had implanted faith in your heart you had to take is and a choice you will not unmake is rather silly.

Your choice was a foregone conclusion and therefore nothing of any merit whatever.