Political Crossfire Forums

[ToonArmyIsComing]

I am shocked and I am sad at how prejudiced people are to the point that they execute a young boy in such a manner just because he is gay. :cry: I hope he rests in peace and at least wherever he is right now, he won't have to face the torture of being gay in an intolerant society.

By the way, this has been done based on a fatwa by the supposedly "moderate" Grand Ayatollah Sistani who has "called for the execution of gays in the worst, most severe way". I guess "moderate" means something else in the Middle East. :roll:

Quote: Iraqi police 'killed 14-year-old boy for being homosexual'
By Jerome Taylor
Published: 05 May 2006

Human rights groups have condemned the "barbaric" murder of a 14-year-old boy, who, according to witnesses, was shot on his doorstep by Iraqi police for the apparent crime of being gay.

Ahmed Khalil was shot at point-blank range after being accosted by men in police uniforms, according to his neighbours in the al-Dura area of Baghdad.

Campaign groups have warned of a surge in homophobic killings by state security services and religious militias following an anti-gay and anti-lesbian fatwa issued by Iraq's most prominent Shia leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

Ali Hili, the co-ordinator of a group of exiled Iraqi gay men who monitor homophobic attacks inside Iraq, said the fatwa had instigated a "witch-hunt of lesbian and gay Iraqis, including violent beatings, kidnappings and assassinations".

"Young Ahmed was a victim of poverty," he said. "He was summarily executed, apparently by fundamentalist elements in the Iraqi police."

Neighbours in al-Dura district say Ahmed's father was arrested and interrogated two days before his son's murder by police who demanded to know about Ahmed's sexual activities. It is believed Ahmed slept with men for money to support his poverty-stricken family, who have fled the area fearing further reprisals.

The killing of Ahmed is one of a series of alleged homophobic murders. There is mounting evidence that fundamentalists have infiltrated government security forces to commit homophobic murders while wearing police uniforms.

Human rights groups are particularly concerned that the Sadr and Badr militias, both Shia, have stepped up their attacks on the gay community after a string of religious rulings, since the US-led invasion, calling for the eradication of homosexuals.

Grand Ayatollah Sistani recently issued a fatwa on his website calling for the execution of gays in the "worst, most severe way".

The powerful Badr militia acts as the military wing of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), which counts Ayatollah Sistani as its spiritual leader. Another fatwa from the late and much revered Ayatollah Abul Qassim Khoei allows followers to kill gays "with a sword, or burn him alive, or tie his hands and feet and hurl him down from a high place".

Mr Hili said: "According to our contacts in Baghdad, the Iraqi police have been heavily infiltrated by the Shia paramilitary Badr Corps."

Mr Hili, whose Abu Nawas group has close links with clandestine gay activists inside Iraq, said US coalition forces are unwilling to try and tackle the rising tide of homophobic attacks. "They just don't want to upset the Iraqi government by bringing up the taboo of homosexuality even though homophobic murders have intensified," he said.

A number of public homophobic murders by the Badr militia have terrified Iraq's gay community. Last September, Hayder Faiek, a transsexual, was burnt to death by Badr militias in the main street of Baghdad's al-Karada district. In January, suspected militants shot another gay man in the back of the head.

The US State Department has yet to document the surge in its annual human rights reports. Iraq's neighbours, however, such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and the UAE, are often criticised for their persecution of gays.

Darla Jordan, from the US State Department said: "The US government continues to work closely with our Iraqi partners to ensure the protection of human rights and the safety of all Iraqi citizens."

Human rights groups have condemned the "barbaric" murder of a 14-year-old boy, who, according to witnesses, was shot on his doorstep by Iraqi police for the apparent crime of being gay.

Ahmed Khalil was shot at point-blank range after being accosted by men in police uniforms, according to his neighbours in the al-Dura area of Baghdad.

Campaign groups have warned of a surge in homophobic killings by state security services and religious militias following an anti-gay and anti-lesbian fatwa issued by Iraq's most prominent Shia leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

Ali Hili, the co-ordinator of a group of exiled Iraqi gay men who monitor homophobic attacks inside Iraq, said the fatwa had instigated a "witch-hunt of lesbian and gay Iraqis, including violent beatings, kidnappings and assassinations".

"Young Ahmed was a victim of poverty," he said. "He was summarily executed, apparently by fundamentalist elements in the Iraqi police."

Neighbours in al-Dura district say Ahmed's father was arrested and interrogated two days before his son's murder by police who demanded to know about Ahmed's sexual activities. It is believed Ahmed slept with men for money to support his poverty-stricken family, who have fled the area fearing further reprisals.

The killing of Ahmed is one of a series of alleged homophobic murders. There is mounting evidence that fundamentalists have infiltrated government security forces to commit homophobic murders while wearing police uniforms.

Human rights groups are particularly concerned that the Sadr and Badr militias, both Shia, have stepped up their attacks on the gay community after a string of religious rulings, since the US-led invasion, calling for the eradication of homosexuals.

Grand Ayatollah Sistani recently issued a fatwa on his website calling for the execution of gays in the "worst, most severe way".

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article362151.ece

[StrangerWitCandy]

freedom is on the march!! WOOOOT!!

[George W Bush]

This is yet another example of the sickness of religion.

Most all religions have had their heyday of blood shed.

These times were seeing Islam have its heyday.

Its not gonna stop until people finally wake up to realize that faith is a curse and has been plaguing mankind for 2 millenia or more.

[Æ]

This isn't about religion at all. It's about people using religion as an excuse to suit themselves.

[George W Bush]

aLienaTeD wrote: This isn't about religion at all. It's about people using religion as an excuse to suit themselves.

yes.

it is about religion.

religions effect is that it has inspired the worst in humanity all throughout time.

I could use the same argument in response to things like drugs.

Drugs arent doing bad things. Its people doing drugs doing the bad things.

Some would argue, no its the drugs.

In this case, I see religion as a drug.
I wouldnt support anything that prevented religion.
But, I would choose not to participate because it has brought the worst out of mankind. Its created animals out of people.

[Æ]

George W Bush wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: This isn't about religion at all. It's about people using religion as an excuse to suit themselves.

yes.

it is about religion.

religions effect is that it has inspired the worst in humanity all throughout time.

I could use the same argument in response to things like drugs.

Drugs arent doing bad things. Its people doing drugs doing the bad things.

Some would argue, no its the drugs.

In this case, I see religion as a drug.
I wouldnt support anything that prevented religion.
But, I would choose not to participate because it has brought the worst out of mankind. Its created animals out of people.
Do you think the God of the OT is the same God of the NT? I don't think so. Fundamentalists are quoting passages condemning homosexuality, but they always overlook the other ridiculous things the bible says to do.

Society has always looked upon homosexuality with scorn because it disgusts them. This is the reason they will grab at whatever they can to validate their point of view in oppressing and murdering homosexuals. Those people who murder in the "name of God" really are no different than nazis and they should be handled accordingly.

[George W Bush]

These books of faith are so open-ended. There is nothing concrete in them that is specific enough to warrant ANY justification - let alone stoning heretics.
My point is, I agree with you.
The distortion of religion, however, is because nothing is clear. Theres an abstract God with not-so-well-understood messages.
We could argue all the way to Revelations on what is/is not. But, i'll make it easy and simply object to anything in the Bible/Talmud/Quaran.

Btw, I appreciate the faithful with good intentions who condemn these actions. A voice, in unison, would help. Perhaps we can put sanctions on Iraq until they can assure they wont let this happen again.

[Æ]

George W Bush wrote: These books of faith are so open-ended. There is nothing concrete in them that is specific enough to warrant ANY justification - let alone stoning heretics.
My point is, I agree with you.
The distortion of religion, however, is because nothing is clear. Theres an abstract God with not-so-well-understood messages.
We could argue all the way to Revelations on what is/is not. But, i'll make it easy and simply object to anything in the Bible/Talmud/Quaran.

Btw, I appreciate the faithful with good intentions who condemn these actions. A voice, in unison, would help. Perhaps we can put sanctions on Iraq until they can assure they wont let this happen again.
Sanctions hurt everyone in the country and usually they end up punishing the wrong people. The people responsible for any of these murders ought to be brought to justice as well as any person, governmental or not, who issues orders to kill people.

[George W Bush]

aLienaTeD wrote: George W Bush wrote: These books of faith are so open-ended. There is nothing concrete in them that is specific enough to warrant ANY justification - let alone stoning heretics.
My point is, I agree with you.
The distortion of religion, however, is because nothing is clear. Theres an abstract God with not-so-well-understood messages.
We could argue all the way to Revelations on what is/is not. But, i'll make it easy and simply object to anything in the Bible/Talmud/Quaran.

Btw, I appreciate the faithful with good intentions who condemn these actions. A voice, in unison, would help. Perhaps we can put sanctions on Iraq until they can assure they wont let this happen again.
Sanctions hurt everyone in the country and usually they end up punishing the wrong people. The people responsible for any of these murders ought to be brought to justice as well as any person, governmental or not, who issues orders to kill people.

This particular issue, if not state sanctioned, is therefore illegal and should be tried as such. But, the impression I got was that it was a faction of Iraqi sovereign government doing the assassinations.
If so, Sanctions are warranted. We shouldnt be sponsering murderous regimes.

[Æ]

George W Bush wrote: aLienaTeD wrote: George W Bush wrote: These books of faith are so open-ended. There is nothing concrete in them that is specific enough to warrant ANY justification - let alone stoning heretics.
My point is, I agree with you.
The distortion of religion, however, is because nothing is clear. Theres an abstract God with not-so-well-understood messages.
We could argue all the way to Revelations on what is/is not. But, i'll make it easy and simply object to anything in the Bible/Talmud/Quaran.

Btw, I appreciate the faithful with good intentions who condemn these actions. A voice, in unison, would help. Perhaps we can put sanctions on Iraq until they can assure they wont let this happen again.
Sanctions hurt everyone in the country and usually they end up punishing the wrong people. The people responsible for any of these murders ought to be brought to justice as well as any person, governmental or not, who issues orders to kill people.

This particular issue, if not state sanctioned, is therefore illegal and should be tried as such. But, the impression I got was that it was a faction of Iraqi sovereign government doing the assassinations.
If so, Sanctions are warranted. We shouldnt be sponsering murderous regimes.
They don't seem to be so sovereign just yet.

We should do more than not sponsoring genocidal regimes (we shouldn't be sponsoring other regimes in the first place). We should strike a little fear into the hearts of those who order people to be killed; especially those who order the mass murder of people on the basis of physical characteristics. These murderers are unworthy of a proper burial, let alone life.

[fosters]

just because he had sex with men for money doesn't mean he was gay, he might have just been desperate for money.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

fosters wrote: just because he had sex with men for money doesn't mean he was gay, he might have just been desperate for money.

Regardless, it's evident that the gay people in Iraq are increasingly targetted in violent attacks especially after the fatwa by the "moderate" Ayatollah Sistani.

And the 14 year old Ahmed [whether he was gay or not] was believed to be gay by those who killed him and that is why they killed him. So in the end, this was a homophobic murder.

[Æ]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: fosters wrote: just because he had sex with men for money doesn't mean he was gay, he might have just been desperate for money.

Regardless, it's evident that the gay people in Iraq are increasingly targetted in violent attacks especially after the fatwa by the "moderate" Ayatollah Sistani.

And the 14 year old Ahmed [whether he was gay or not] was believed to be gay by those who killed him and that is why they killed him. So in the end, this was a homophobic murder.
Homophobic is not the right word. They don't fear it; they hate it.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

aLienaTeD wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: fosters wrote: just because he had sex with men for money doesn't mean he was gay, he might have just been desperate for money.

Regardless, it's evident that the gay people in Iraq are increasingly targetted in violent attacks especially after the fatwa by the "moderate" Ayatollah Sistani.

And the 14 year old Ahmed [whether he was gay or not] was believed to be gay by those who killed him and that is why they killed him. So in the end, this was a homophobic murder.
Homophobic is not the right word. They don't fear it; they hate it.

Agreed ... what do you suppose we call it then?

[00timh]

Going after religion for this, how typical, such an easy way for people to blanket the hatred they see because they themselves do not agree with religion. I could care less if any one person is religious or not. Religion, like drugs or anything else serves a purpose. People join a religion because the religion suits what they already feel.

People who are mentally imbalanced will always gravitate toward something. Knowing this field the way I do mentally imbalanced people can find hatred and a reason to commit crime and violence in even the most peaceful of circumstances. I've seen it happen, many many times.

Chrisitianity is against homosexuality. no where in the religion however does it advocate killing homosexuals. People who are mentally imbalanced will take the stance of Christianity that homosexuality is wrong and apply their own hatred and paranoia to it. These people are going to feel hatred for something regardless if it is because of religion or not. the idea that religion is bad because look what it does to people, look what it makes them believe is completly wrong. People already have these inclinations. If it wasn't religion, they would gravitate somwhere else to get it. That is what so many on here fail to understand.

Why is it that people feel that Christianity is so wrong yet they place no blame on those who have commit violence and have in the past played video games such as Grand theft auto? Isn't that game making teenagers and young adults feel that violence and death is a good thing?

[George W Bush]

00timh wrote: Going after religion for this, how typical, such an easy way for people to blanket the hatred they see because they themselves do not agree with religion. I could care less if any one person is religious or not. Religion, like drugs or anything else serves a purpose. People join a religion because the religion suits what they already feel.

People who are mentally imbalanced will always gravitate toward something. Knowing this field the way I do mentally imbalanced people can find hatred and a reason to commit crime and violence in even the most peaceful of circumstances. I've seen it happen, many many times.

Chrisitianity is against homosexuality. no where in the religion however does it advocate killing homosexuals. People who are mentally imbalanced will take the stance of Christianity that homosexuality is wrong and apply their own hatred and paranoia to it. These people are going to feel hatred for something regardless if it is because of religion or not. the idea that religion is bad because look what it does to people, look what it makes them believe is completly wrong. People already have these inclinations. If it wasn't religion, they would gravitate somwhere else to get it. That is what so many on here fail to understand.

Why is it that people feel that Christianity is so wrong yet they place no blame on those who have commit violence and have in the past played video games such as Grand theft auto? Isn't that game making teenagers and young adults feel that violence and death is a good thing?

I guess i'm biased because I am largely agnostic.
This gives me an outsider perspective - I see that religion spawns certain thought processes in people.
Taking on a historical perspective, there was something like 5 million women killed because they were considered heretics (yes, I read this in Dan Browns famous novel)
Couple this with the reasons behind things like Jihad, an outsider will express the negative.
To express the positive: christian relief charities are abundant, I believe. They do the good for people and that is something they should be recognized for as opposed to the heretical cleansing of history.
The same idea can be applied to many Islamic faiths who dont support the idea of Jihad or Osama bin Laden.