Political Crossfire Forums

[Duchifas]

John, you have an amazing tendency to ignore the most important thing I asked you, even though you seemed to address my post, the essence of my post was here:

Quote: Now, can you tell me what was bad about pigs, as opposed to cows, that they had to be forbidden, at least until Jesus arrived?

Care to answer? Or at least specifically tell me that you don't want to answer...

Quote: No...Christianity isn't about doing something because you're required to do it..its doing it because you truly want to. Because you really love God...not that you do things out of obligation.

But you pulled a psholtz there and misquoted me...I said that other Christians do not force people to be Christians by requiring them to do things. Basically I'm saying that you can't force someone to truly believe something...especially the concept of Christianity...only God can give you the Faith to believe.


But I ask you Duchifas...how could I ever be your brother if you can't even believe that it could be part of God's plan to cleans a pig? If He can't cleans pigs....how could he cleans Gentiles?

I don't understand why you are comparing yourself to a pig. G-d can do anything He wants, when did I say otherwise? The fact that He can is not the same as the fact that He did. And You admitted that He didn't.

Quote: I don't think pigs were changed biologically.

So I don't understand why you bringing in some concept of brotherhood into here, and compare cleaning yourself to cleaning pigs.

I dunno, it seems to me that you are willing to go to ANY length to giving us answers. Jonah answered, he had no problem with it. I asked cap'n the same question, and I am sure he will answer it in his next post. I don't understand why you have to bring in wholly unrelated ideas into a simple discussion.

You said sin was forbidden because it was bad. All I am asking you is a simple question. What was bad about a pig, as opposed to a cow, before Jesus arrived?

Will you lose a leg or something if you answer that? Pray about it and answer honestly, what's the big deal?

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: A perfect example of your lack of authority. What grounds do you have to make this ridiculous claim? Or to tell an adult to be responsible. I would like to see you tell me I should do something to my face.
I'm not the one who made it.

Your "dispensation of forgiveness" has long since been over, and the "Christian" religion has long since proven itself to be an almost complete failure. This was true enough in 1776 when a New Order was called forth, an Order which marked the beginning of the Sunset of the "Christian" era, and it's even more true today. Just turn on a TV and watch what all the "Christian" preachers have to say.. it's simply absurd and utterly ridiculous. "Christianity" as a reliigon is over. Which is not to say that the Christ won't be worshipped in the future (just like the Christ has been worshipped in ages past, well before the birth of your "Savior").. it *will* be, just not (most likely) under the name of the "Christian" anymore. Apparently human beings aren't ready for that much responsibility yet.

It's like I posted at the beginning of this thread:

Quote: That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist, from the beginning of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion which already existed began to be called Christianity.

-- St. Augustine

Today we live in an era where the opposite is happening. The worship of the Christ shall go on, much like it has since the dawn of the human race, but it's unlikely that such worship will pass under the name of "Christianity" going forward. The "Christians" have done far too much to degrade and desecrate the sacred memory of the Nazarene for this absurdity to continue much longer in the future.

Quote: What grounds do you have have to call me irresponsible, anyway? You have no idea what responsibility is.
You're probably responsible to a far greater degree than many people are, but there's still an aspect of you which seeks to evade (ultimate) responsibility for the actions (and thoughts, and words) you have committed as per your gift of Free Will. It seems to me that you seek to pin these responsibilities upon a scapegoat, upon a "sacrificial lamb", upon a "Messiah" which you believe came to take away your responsibility and take it upon himself.

Such a belief is erroneous (to say nothing of the fact that such a conception of what the "Messiah" is is completely at variance w/ Jewish understanding), and in the long run can only end in death and failure.. First you must obey the Law, then see where that leads you. He who sows wheat shall eat of the Bread of Life; he who sows tares, with those tares shall be burnt up.

That is the Law.

[cap'n queasy]

Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If it so appeared, I am sorry.

There is no need for that between us, my friend. Say what you mean, and I will as well.

No offense will be taken on my part. I know you are sincere and well-meaning.

:-D

Same feeling here.

So where do you stand? In your opinion, is sin forbidden because it is bad? Or bad because it is forbidden? With respect to ritual laws/prohibitions.

I believe sin serves the function it was designed by the Creator to perform.

To make us aware of good and evil.

It is acting in an evil evil manner that is forbidden because it violates the Shema and the commandment to love our neighbors as we love our selves. It is in these two commandments that the whole of the Law and the Prophets are expressed. By acting in a good manner we exhibit the love that is in our hearts and the presence of the Ruach Ha Kodesh therein. It is this presence that makes us aware of our need for teshuva.

I believe this serves the Creator in the manner in which He intended.

So it is evil that is forbidden, not exactly sin, because the presence of sin is part of what we are as flesh. Sin is a blood debt that we must all pay. That would essentially forbid our existence, if sin where forbidden. We ARE sin. Nowhere else in the world does sin exist other than the human being.

I would say that YHWH forbids evil because it is harmful to our spiritual development and shows disrespect toward Him and His purposes, but that it has also served His unknowable purposes to forbid certain things at certain time that are not evil. Likely to bring awareness to Israel and through Israel to humanity in general. It would bring evil to to ignore these things at those times. So in short, I would have to say both apply.

I believe it is YHWH's purpose to use Israel as a "light unto nations", and Israel's production of the Tanakh, Moshiach, and through Moshiach's disciples the testament to the New Covenant.

These all came from Israel. YHWH is almighty and unknowable, who knows what method He might choose to accomplish his purposes? The best we can do is study the scriptures and observe their workings in the world and in our lives. And to be aware of the evil we do so we can repent.

That's the way I see it anyhow.

God Bless.

[Duchifas]

cap'n queasy wrote: Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If it so appeared, I am sorry.

There is no need for that between us, my friend. Say what you mean, and I will as well.

No offense will be taken on my part. I know you are sincere and well-meaning.

:-D

Same feeling here.

So where do you stand? In your opinion, is sin forbidden because it is bad? Or bad because it is forbidden? With respect to ritual laws/prohibitions.

I believe sin serves the function it was designed by the Creator to perform.

To make us aware of good and evil.

It is acting in an evil evil manner that is forbidden because it violates the Shema and the commandment to love our neighbors as we love our selves. It is in these two commandments that the whole of the Law and the Prophets are expressed. By acting in a good manner we exhibit the love that is in our hearts and the presence of the Ruach Ha Kodesh therein. It is this presence that makes us aware of our need for teshuva.

I believe this serves the Creator in the manner in which He intended.

So it is evil that is forbidden, not exactly sin, because the presence of sin is part of what we are as flesh. Sin is a blood debt that we must all pay. That would essentially forbid our existence, if sin where forbidden. We ARE sin. Nowhere else in the world does sin exist other than the human being.

I would say that YHWH forbids evil because it is harmful to our spiritual development and shows disrespect toward Him and His purposes, but that it has also served His unknowable purposes to forbid certain things at certain time that are not evil. Likely to bring awareness to Israel and through Israel to humanity in general. It would bring evil to to ignore these things at those times. So in short, I would have to say both apply.

I believe it is YHWH's purpose to use Israel as a "light unto nations", and Israel's production of the Tanakh, Moshiach, and through Moshiach's disciples the testament to the New Covenant.

These all came from Israel. YHWH is almighty and unknowable, who knows what method He might choose to accomplish his purposes? The best we can do is study the scriptures and observe their workings in the world and in our lives. And to be aware of the evil we do so we can repent.

That's the way I see it anyhow.

God Bless.

Oh, comon, cap'n, you also didn't answer my simple question.

To rephrase, do you believe pork was forbidden, at least until Jesus came, because there was something "bad" about pork?

John seems to think so. Do you?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: but there's still an aspect of you which seeks to evade (ultimate) responsibility for the actions (and thoughts, and words) you have committed as per your gift of Free Will.

No, I realize I am a sinner and my sins are on my soul and no one elses. All flesh sins, it is integral to existence. That's the point of our material existence in the first place, to become aware of the difference between Good and Evil. That's what Adam and Eve chose, sin. The nachash made it sound like the greatest thing in the universe, but when it comes down to it he was selling them sin.

The difference between us is that you think you can remove you own sins, and this is what YHWH requires of us.

And I think when something happens it has happened and cannot be ever changed. My sins can't be taken away, only forgiven by YHWH if He so chooses. I believe my debt was paid for me at the cross because that is the method YHWH chose to make redemption possible for us. To allow us to be washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

The works of our own hands are not something we should worship. Think of it like this, we worship that which brings us redemption and salvation, for these are the most important facets of our existence. Is it our actions that that redeem us? Is it our actions that save us?

If you answered yes to these last two questions, you are worshiping the works of your hands. You are looking at yourself as the most important thing in the universe. The only thing that can redeem and save you. You are worshiping yourself. Consider my words, because they come from my heart of hearts, where the Spirit dwells.

Y'shua was not teaching His own brand of "Vulcan mind control", and that His techniques are interchangeable with those of other great teachers. Y'shua said that we was the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through him.

The Light shone in the Darkness but the darkness did not comprehend.


God Bless.

[cap'n queasy]

Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If it so appeared, I am sorry.

There is no need for that between us, my friend. Say what you mean, and I will as well.

No offense will be taken on my part. I know you are sincere and well-meaning.

:-D

Same feeling here.

So where do you stand? In your opinion, is sin forbidden because it is bad? Or bad because it is forbidden? With respect to ritual laws/prohibitions.

I believe sin serves the function it was designed by the Creator to perform.

To make us aware of good and evil.

It is acting in an evil evil manner that is forbidden because it violates the Shema and the commandment to love our neighbors as we love our selves. It is in these two commandments that the whole of the Law and the Prophets are expressed. By acting in a good manner we exhibit the love that is in our hearts and the presence of the Ruach Ha Kodesh therein. It is this presence that makes us aware of our need for teshuva.

I believe this serves the Creator in the manner in which He intended.

So it is evil that is forbidden, not exactly sin, because the presence of sin is part of what we are as flesh. Sin is a blood debt that we must all pay. That would essentially forbid our existence, if sin where forbidden. We ARE sin. Nowhere else in the world does sin exist other than the human being.

I would say that YHWH forbids evil because it is harmful to our spiritual development and shows disrespect toward Him and His purposes, but that it has also served His unknowable purposes to forbid certain things at certain time that are not evil. Likely to bring awareness to Israel and through Israel to humanity in general. It would bring evil to to ignore these things at those times. So in short, I would have to say both apply.

I believe it is YHWH's purpose to use Israel as a "light unto nations", and Israel's production of the Tanakh, Moshiach, and through Moshiach's disciples the testament to the New Covenant.

These all came from Israel. YHWH is almighty and unknowable, who knows what method He might choose to accomplish his purposes? The best we can do is study the scriptures and observe their workings in the world and in our lives. And to be aware of the evil we do so we can repent.

That's the way I see it anyhow.

God Bless.

Oh, comon, cap'n, you also didn't answer my simple question.

To rephrase, do you believe pork was forbidden, at least until Jesus came, because there was something "bad" about pork?

John seems to think so. Do you?

I answered quite clearly.

Quote: but that it has also served His unknowable purposes to forbid certain things at certain time that are not evil.

Certain foods were forbidden to Israel, during a certain times for a certain purpose. That time is over. The new covenant is here now. It is different from the one made with your fathers.

In this new covenant Israel will be forgiven it's sins and it's iniquities.

The door is open.

[Duchifas]

Quote: but that it has also served His unknowable purposes to forbid certain things at certain time that are not evil.

Sorry, missed that.

Allright, I suppose John's belief on this issue is not that prevalent, and seems on this forum to be limited only to him.

Thanks for your input, cap'n.

[cap'n queasy]

Duchifas wrote: Quote: but that it has also served His unknowable purposes to forbid certain things at certain time that are not evil.

Sorry, missed that.

Allright, I suppose John's belief on this issue is not that prevalent, and seems on this forum to be limited only to him.

Thanks for your input, cap'n.

It's my pleasure.

I think John was trying to keep the situation in it's simplest terms. But the question here does require more than that, I believe.

[John]

Quote: Care to answer? Or at least specifically tell me that you don't want to answer...

Stop talking to me like I'm on your witness stand...I'm not on trial here...and if you speak to me with a little respect, you'll receive your answer. But I will not be manipulated and coached into saying what you want me to so you can spring your case on me. So don't get frustrated if your techniques don't work on me.




Quote: do you believe pork was forbidden, at least until Jesus came, because there was something "bad" about pork?

Yes I do. In more than one way...health wise and God's plan wise. (God’s plan being the real importance of the two) God chose to use His chosen people to act and do things that painted a picture of His plan of Salvation. To refuse to act out the picture is "bad" because it plays such a part in our spiritual development to this very day. Is it wrong to hit a rock with a stick? Is it a sin? Well it is if you're Moses and God has given you directions in doing something that helps reveal His plan. Would it have been wrong to hit rocks with sticks after the message has been given? Of course not.

[John]

Quote: I don't understand why you are comparing yourself to a pig. G-d can do anything He wants, when did I say otherwise? The fact that He can is not the same as the fact that He did. And You admitted that He didn't.
Why not? Under Mosaic Law Gentiles are considered unclean as a pig is.

Spiritually speaking the pig's biology has nothing to do with being defiled by it, it’s more of an observation of the behavior of the pig and what it represents...and the picture it paints of what God expects.

When Messiah came and died on the cross, He fulfilled what all of these religious rituals represented and gave a direct link to God through Himself. The Gentile that believes is made clean...and the pigs that were part of the picture in this whole issue are no longer needed to act out ritually what can be done literally.

The same reason that pigs are available to eat now, is the reason that Gentiles can be redeemed along side the Jews. Before the cross thier were two type of people on this planet in God's eyes. Jews and Gentiles. After the cross there are three. Jews, Gentile and the Church (which is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles together).

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why you are comparing yourself to a pig. G-d can do anything He wants, when did I say otherwise? The fact that He can is not the same as the fact that He did. And You admitted that He didn't.
Why not? Under Mosaic Law Gentiles are considered unclean as a pig is.
Care to cite chapter and verse in the Torah where I can find this?

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: Care to answer? Or at least specifically tell me that you don't want to answer...

Stop talking to me like I'm on your witness stand...I'm not on trial here...and if you speak to me with a little respect, you'll receive your answer. But I will not be manipulated and coached into saying what you want me to so you can spring your case on me. So don't get frustrated if your techniques don't work on me.

This is not about you being on trial, this is about fundamental politeness and intellectual honesty. You made a very strange statement, I asked you a simple question about it, and you started taking me on detours. I am being perfectly respectful to you, and there was nothing disrespectful about me questioning your statement. What IS disrespectful is your semblance of maintaining a conversation, yet evading it at the same time. I can catch on to that too, you know.

If you don't want to have a discussion, then don't, nobody is forcing you to, and just because I'd like you to answer a question doesn't mean that you are on trial. In fact, I told you a few pages ago:

Duchifas wrote: Do me a favor, if you don't want to answer my question from now, then just say "I don't want to answer."

Nobody is forcing you into anything, so I don't see why you are getting so defensive. This is not about trial techniques, it's about having a reasonable discussion of a subject. If you don't want to discuss it with me, then say so, and I will be happy to oblige. Jonah didn't have a problem answering the first time I asked. Cap't didn't have a problem. They are perfectly polite and respectful to me, and I try to be perfectly polite and respectful to them.

But what's your problem?

Quote: Quote: do you believe pork was forbidden, at least until Jesus came, because there was something "bad" about pork?

Yes I do. In more than one way...health wise and God's plan wise. (God’s plan being the real importance of the two) God chose to use His chosen people to act and do things that painted a picture of His plan of Salvation. To refuse to act out the picture is "bad" because it plays such a part in our spiritual development to this very day. Is it wrong to hit a rock with a stick? Is it a sin? Well it is if you're Moses and God has given you directions in doing something that helps reveal His plan. Would it have been wrong to hit rocks with sticks after the message has been given? Of course not.

Ok, thank you. I am happy you agree with me. This analogy, just like the one with the pen/kindergarten, clearly implies it. Hitting rocks just by itself is nothing bad. The only reason it was bad was because it didn't comport with G-d's plan. Similarly, there is nothing bad about a pig, as opposed to a cow, except that G-d forbade it because He had a plan. Thus, you have once again debunked your initial statement.

With respect to health issues, beef can be as harmful as pork if prepared badly, and pork can be as harmless as beef if prepared adequately. if health issues still bother you, we can discuss sins like lighting fires on Sabbath and mixing wool with linen. I highly doubt that you can come up with health rationales for those, and other sins.

Therefore, you seem to have agreed with me, although you can't bring yourself to admit that your little doctrine about sins being forbidden because they are bad didn't have a leg to stand on. Pretty much like in almost every one of our conversations, so I am not surprised.

Ok, thanks, and have a pleasant day.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: but there's still an aspect of you which seeks to evade (ultimate) responsibility for the actions (and thoughts, and words) you have committed as per your gift of Free Will.

No, I realize I am a sinner and my sins are on my soul and no one elses. All flesh sins, it is integral to existence. That's the point of our material existence in the first place, to become aware of the difference between Good and Evil. That's what Adam and Eve chose, sin. The nachash made it sound like the greatest thing in the universe, but when it comes down to it he was selling them sin.
Your ideology here comes dangerously close to something you've frequently accused me of in the past, which is Gnosticism. Personally, I don't believe that flesh or matter is inherently "sinful" or "evil".. I believe it simply "is".. True enough, flesh and matter often work a deadening and retarding influence upon the Soul, and they force the Soul to feel emotions which one might characterize as "painful" or "fearful", but evil or sin only arises when the Soul allows itself to succumb those deadening influences and emotions.

A Soul which makes judicious use of its Free Will can just as soon spiritualize flesh and matter as it can "sin" in flesh and matter through foolish exercise of its Free Will.

Quote: My sins can't be taken away, only forgiven by YHWH if He so chooses.
Yes, I suppose there is some truth to this.

Just know that the standards by which YHVH "chooses" to forgive sin never change. They are (by definition) eternal.

Quote: The works of our own hands are not something we should worship. Think of it like this, we worship that which brings us redemption and salvation, for these are the most important facets of our existence. Is it our actions that that redeem us? Is it our actions that save us?
The farmer cannot sow any seeds unless he takes action and plants them in the first place.. and he cannot reap a harvest unless he tends to his crop as its growing and waters it, etc. Only then can he enjoy the harvest he has reaped and eat of the Bread of Life. It's God who gives the increase, and its God who turns the seed into a stalk of wheat, but its up to man to plant the seeds in the first place (and to tend to them, and to harvest them at the appropriate time).

God Bless you too, cap'n.. :-D

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why you are comparing yourself to a pig. G-d can do anything He wants, when did I say otherwise? The fact that He can is not the same as the fact that He did. And You admitted that He didn't.
Why not? Under Mosaic Law Gentiles are considered unclean as a pig is.

Spiritually speaking the pig's biology has nothing to do with being defiled by it, it’s more of an observation of the behavior of the pig and what it represents...and the picture it paints of what God expects.

When Messiah came and died on the cross, He fulfilled what all of these religious rituals represented and gave a direct link to God through Himself. The Gentile that believes is made clean...and the pigs that were part of the picture in this whole issue are no longer needed to act out ritually what can be done literally.

The same reason that pigs are available to eat now, is the reason that Gentiles can be redeemed along side the Jews. Before the cross thier were two type of people on this planet in God's eyes. Jews and Gentiles. After the cross there are three. Jews, Gentile and the Church (which is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles together).

IMHO, there have always been and there will always be two types of people on earth, in G-d's eyes - those who try to be good people, and those who don't try so hard (that's not very accurate, but you get the idea). There are ways to be good as a Jew, and there are ways to be good as a Gentile. Likewise, a Jew can find ways to be evil, and so can a Gentile.

Lastly, if any Gentile feels that to him the distinction between Jews and Gentiles is an obstacle to fulfilling his potential, he (or she) can convert to Judaism and be as much a Jew as Mailech and I, if that makes him feel closer to G-d.

[John]

*deleted

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Your ideology here comes dangerously close to something you've frequently accused me of in the past, which is Gnosticism.

No, physicality (the material universe) is not evil (couple this with a belief that the Creator is therefore evil because He created the material universe and you have the core belief in the Gnostic tradition). But all humans are sinful and there is nothing they can really do about changing this. The matter is up to someone else. This sinfulness is not caused by being flesh, being flesh is caused by this sinfulness, which is rebellion against the Creator in the heart of hearts of the first man and woman and everyone who came after, this is what the Master was speaking of when He told us that we must overcome. One single act of disobedience brought two people into the fleshly existence whereby they might gain the knowledge of good and evil. Unfortunately for the progeny of this couple they are inextricably bound to the fleshly existence as well. And experiencing the knowledge of good and evil. It's just what human beings are. There's nothing inherently evil about the material universe at all. This sin that caused the Fall was committed by two folks who where in their rightful habitation, Eden, clothed in light. The evil comes in thinking you know what is better for yourself than what the Creator had in store for you. Evil is in the hearts of human beings. Pride, envy, anger, avarice, sadness, gluttony, and lust all exist within the human heart.


Quote: The farmer cannot sow any seeds unless he takes action and plants them in the first place.. and he cannot reap a harvest unless he tends to his crop as its growing and waters it,

For the hundredth time. You are not the sower of seeds. Your heart is the ground in which they are planted. Y'shua clearly explains this parable. You are not the harvester but, hopefully, part of the harvest.

One's heart may be a rocky place where the seedling do not get a firm footing and do not survive, one's heart may be a place where there are "thorn bushes" growing that choke out the seedlings and they do not survive, one's heart may be so totally unreceptive to the seed that the "birds of the air come and eat the seed" and they do not survive.

Mixing other metaphors with this parable renders it into something harmful.

You can ignore what I am saying and continue to act on the belief that works of your own doing will somehow cover what is in your heart of hearts and cause YHWH to owe you salvation, if you like.

I'm telling you you need Living Water.
Quote: Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: But all humans are sinful and there is nothing they can really do about changing this.
Yes there is.

Humans can freely, and of their own volition, choose to obey Divine Law.

This is the reason you've been gifted w/ Free Will.

You neglect this gift at your own peril.

Quote: For the hundredth time. You are not the sower of seeds.
If you don't sow the seeds, how can you expect to eat of the Bread of Life?

[Duchifas]

cap'n queasy and psholtz wrote: I'm telling you you need Living Water.

For the hundredth time. You are not the sower of seeds.

If you don't sow the seeds, how can you expect to eat of the Bread of Life?

What's with all the food talk, is it dinner time already? ;)

[John]

It would be nice to see this thread get back on topic...

Here is the question:
Mailech wrote:
Now my question. I've read on this forum that when people before Jesus was crucified died they went to a holding pen until then and then Jesus preached to them and then they went to heaven. But what about the people who lived with the temple and brought sacrifices for thier sins, they would not need Jesus to enter Heaven right?

And what about people that G-d punished for thier sins like Moshe and Aahron for example. They recieved thier punishment, does that not atone for them? Why then would they need Jesus to enter Heaven

[psholtz]

So in the spirit of getting back on topic..

Mailech wrote: Now my question. I've read on this forum that when people before Jesus was crucified died they went to a holding pen until then and then Jesus preached to them and then they went to heaven. But what about the people who lived with the temple and brought sacrifices for thier sins, they would not need Jesus to enter Heaven right?
Every human Soul needs the Christ to enter into Heaven.

All Souls.

There are no exceptions. There never have been, and there never will be.

Your Temple in Jerusalem matters not the slightest whit in this scheme of things. I'm sure there were those, in the days of your Temple, who did succeed in finding the Christ. Certainly history records that one of your tribe named Jesus did, as did most of his apostles, as did many others after him... and, frankly, as did many before him.

The Christ has been w/ the human race since its dawn. It didn't just suddenly, randomly appear in the time of Jesus. Jesus was not the first Christ and he was not the last.

All Souls must find the Christ if they expect to get into Heaven.. or, as Jesus phrases it, be "born again" of the Spirit.

Faith in Jesus as a man is not necessarily relevant in this process (although it can be helpful). Faith in God as a Lawgiver is essential.

Quote: And what about people that G-d punished for thier sins like Moshe and Aahron for example. They recieved thier punishment, does that not atone for them? Why then would they need Jesus to enter Heaven
Everyone who sins is punished.

There is *no* evasion of God's Law.

None.

If Moshe and Aaron sinned, then they were punished, and there is no force in Heaven or on Earth that can stop that from happening.

However, just being punished for your sins is not enough to get into Heaven. To get into Heaven, you need the Christ.