Political Crossfire Forums

[psholtz]

John wrote: If God can redeem the spirit of a Gentile; how much less of a deed is it for Him to make pigs clean?
I don't think pigs are especially clean animals.. not now, and not before Christ either. Surely you're not proposing that Christ ritually washed clean all pigs as part of his mission on Earth?? :?

[psholtz]

John wrote: Quote: Ok. But Jesus did not remove the toxins. If the toxins are the rationale for not eating pigs, then Christians shouldn't eat them just like we don't. [Along with all the other laws).

The ritual shadow Laws are fulfilled in accepting Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is constantly washing us spiritually clean. There is no need in acting out the ritual when you can accept the reality.
I don't think you addressed the bit about the toxins..

Surely you're not proposing that the Holy Spirit is going to wash you ritually clean if you swallow a plateful of botulism toxin or anthrax spores, are you?

Quote: If would be like sacrificing a bull to the Lord when you've already accepted His sacrifice which it the ultimate eternal sacrifice. It would be like saying, "Well...I don't really believe in who You are Lord and what you did".
Sacrificing a bull to the "Lord" and expecting that anything good can come out of this is almost as superstitous (and almost as silly .. and I'm doing my best to use polite words here) as just "believing" that someone else has paid the debts which you yourself are responsible for having created as per God's gift of Free Will.

Almost.... but not quite.. :-D

[cap'n queasy]

Jonah wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Matthew 22:34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Here Y'shua explains the Law, if you do not have this Law written in your heart it matters not how closely you follow the 613 Mitzot. One must follow the "spirit" in which the Law is intended.

You probably recognize the first and foremost law as the Shema. And the next one is like it in importance.

For example one can recite the Shema everyday, but if they do not carry this in their heart it is just some words they repeat daily. Rote repetition of certain words does not necessarily translate into a faithful relationship.

What good is it if your wife tells you she loves you every day when you leave for work if she is having an affair with the milkman while you are gone? See what I mean?

Take a good look at Yermiyahu 31, particularly verses 27-40. To think that the works of our own hands will make things right between humanity and YHWH is spiritual fornication. It is better to judge ourselves rightly and ask for forgiveness for what we are, otherwise we are just like the unfaithful wife who kisses her husband and tells him she loves him, but runs around behind his back. We think we are getting something better for ourselves by our actions than what God granted us to have and be.

Y'shua brought the New Covenant, in which the law will be written in men's hearts rather than in non-living stone. Take a look at Yermiyahu 31, particularly verses 27-40.

I was wondering if one of the precepts of modern Judaism is that there are many ways to YHWH, why do they seem to hold Christianity to be apostate or heretical when they don't hold a religion such as Islam or Buddhism in the same regard? It looks like a double standard.

That doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Perhaps it is something to do with the history of Christianity.

At any rate, there is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son, rather than through our own works. You can find this concept throughout the Tanakh.

For example.
Quote: Psalm 2:1 Why are the nations in an uproar

And the peoples devising a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And the rulers take counsel together

Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us tear their fetters apart

And cast away their cords from us!"


4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,

The Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then He will speak to them in His anger

And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King

Upon Zion, My holy mountain."


7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "


10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;

Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

For His wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!


Y'shua will claim His inheritence very soon, I feel. Have faith in the promises of YHWH, they will come to be. Everyone who takes refuge in the Son is blessed with salvation and eternal life in the presence of the Almighty.

cap'n my cap'n (small c) :-D ,

Great post.

I love that quote from Psalm 2, especially how it mentions the "Son".

Thank you, my friend.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I don't think pigs are especially clean animals..

They are not filthier than any other animal. People stupidly put them in filth becaue they think pigs are inherently dirty.

It's an old wives tale in other words.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I agree that this linen and wool mixed together thing has no practical value, to my knowledge.

It's symbolic of impurity. Many of these laws are symbols that point to Moshiach, the holiness of YHWH, the necessity of being cleansed from our sins etc.

Whether or not they make sense or not depends on your perspective. If the reasoning behind them is lost so is the benefit of performing any ritual based on the symbolism. How can one understand something if they do not comprehend it? How can an incomprehensible ritual show you anything if there is no one left who remembers the point of it and can tell you about it? I think the purpose behind of all this is to show the necessity of the Holy Spirit in changing us.

But we have the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31, now, and ritual is unecessary and likely detrimental in that the activity becomes the focus, rather than the original purpose of the activity, which is to become cognizant of what YHWH is telling us to do through the scriptures.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: Ok. But Jesus did not remove the toxins. If the toxins are the rationale for not eating pigs, then Christians shouldn't eat them just like we don't. [Along with all the other laws).

The ritual shadow Laws are fulfilled in accepting Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is constantly washing us spiritually clean. There is no need in acting out the ritual when you can accept the reality.

If would be like sacrificing a bull to the Lord when you've already accepted His sacrifice which it the ultimate eternal sacrifice. It would be like saying, "Well...I don't really believe in who You are Lord and what you did".

You really don't like to answer my questions, do you? Why?

I am asking you about toxins, and you are giving me a spiel about spiritually clean. I am not buying your little detours. Do me a favor, if you don't want to answer my question from now, then just say "I don't want to answer."

Quote: Quote: But that's not the same as saying that laws were there because pigs have parasites. Pigs had parasites before Jesus and they have them after Jesus. Thus, Jesus's coming should not have made eating pig any less sinful than before (if the rationale for sin is badness, which is what John is saying).

Can't things have levels of importance? Can't both be true? It's a known fact that pork isn't the healthiest thing...especially if it is kept and prepared wrong.

It is a known thing that any meat isn't the healthiest thing if it is kept and prepared wrong. In fact, that would apply not only to meat, but to virtually any food. Except like matza. I don't see how that can be screwed up.

Quote: And it can be part of a ritual that gives us insight into the person of Messiah.

It's still good advice to avoid pork, but it isn't a spiritual issue anymore because God has revealed more of His plan and gives people the opportunity to graduate to the next level of understanding.

I don't see how your graduation to the next level of understanding somehow takes away the badness of the sin.

Using that rationale, you can logically justify ANY sin, since you are a graduate.

Quote: It’s like the concept of studying Torah in Heaven. Why would you do that when you have access to the living Torah; the Almighty God?

It would be like Isaiah refusing to speak to God because he was reading Torah.

Again, a horrible analogy. That would not justify GOING AGAINST the Torah, which is what you are trying so hard to rationalize here.

Quote:
Duchifas,

If God can redeem the spirit of a Gentile; how much less of a deed is it for Him to make pigs clean?

So let's finally decide here, did G-d make pigs clean (biologically)? Yes? No? Don't know?

Try to answer the question I asked, not something else. Thanks.

cap'n queasy wrote: Whether or not they make sense or not depends on your perspective. If the reasoning behind them is lost so is the benefit of performing any ritual based on the symbolism. How can one understand something if they do not comprehend it? How can an incomprehensible ritual show you anything if there is no one left who remembers the point of it and can tell you about it? I think the purpose behind of all this is to show the necessity of the Holy Spirit in changing us.

I'll give you an analogy. Remember back when you were a kid and your dad told you to do something? But you didn't quite comprehend why on earth he would want you to do that? Or maybe you had some sense why, but didn't totally grasp it?

But you did it anyway, didn't you? Cuz he is your dad, whom you love and respect. Just that in itself has value, and as I noted above, possibly more value then if you can fully rationalize it. Because this way you are doing it out trust for your father, rather than for your mind. We are supposed to serve G-d, not our minds.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I don't see how your graduation to the next level of understanding somehow takes away the badness of the sin.


You are talking about eating shrimp, Duchifas.

Is that really so bad? Is it really a sin? Murder, theft and adultery, yes, but shrimp eating? Yes, YHWH told the Hebrews not to eat them, but now He tells us that we are beyond that. And He tells us why.

Y'shua:
Quote: Matthew 15:10 After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, hear and understand. 11 "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." 12 Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" 13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14 "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit." 15 Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us." 16 Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17 "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

The New Covenant prophesied by Yirmiyahu in chapter 31 tells us that the Law will be written in men's hearts, rather than in stone.

To whit:
Quote: 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


So Yirmiyahu said YHWH will give the house of Israel a new covenant, not like the one He gave their fathers and furthermore it says the difference would be forgiveness for their sin and iniquity.

Guess what?

That's the teaching of Y'shua. You said yourself YHWH does not change His mind. Do you think He changed His mind about this new covenant? He said He was going to change the coventant Himself through the prophet Yirmiyahu. YHWH always keeps his promises. Always. It's up to us to see this.

You can plainly see in Daniel chapter 9 when the bringer of this new covenant was foretold to come.

He came. Receive your forgiveness and let the Law be written on your heart.

God Bless.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: That's the teaching of Y'shua. You said yourself YHWH does not change His mind. Do you think He changed His mind about this new covenant? He said He was going to change the coventant Himself through the prophet Yirmiyahu. YHWH always keeps his promises. Always. It's up to us to see this.
See if you can detect the inherent contradiction in the above paragraph.. :-D

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: We are supposed to serve G-d, not our minds.

Yes, this is true.

Let me ask you something. According to the precepts of modern Judaism all religions lead to the Father, correct?

Why does it seem that you do not feel this way about the followers of Y'shua?

Anyway,
We need desparately to make sure it is, in fact, YHWH who we are serving, and not ourselves. Let's look at this with an open mind. No one is going to be condemned for eating a shrimp. But they darn sure will be condemned if they are judged under the Law they insist supercedes what YHWH told us was to happen, through the prophets, and they have not followed this Law in such a way that they are sinless. Sin cannot come before the Father. It just simply cannot, and the works of one's hands cannot take away one's sins. They have happened, they are there, and only a sacrifice can pay the blood debt of the sins for those who have faith in the righteousness of the Almighty Living God, the one who always keeps His promises to us.

And what Our Father told us through the Prophets was that the Messiah was going to come, when He was coming and what He was coming with. A new covenant that is different from the one He made with Moses, one of forgiveness.

Please consider these things carefully, Duchifas.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Let me ask you something. According to the precepts of modern Judaism all religions lead to the Father, correct?
Where did you pull that one from? :lol:

Quote: And what Our Father told us through the Prophets was that the Messiah was going to come, when He was coming and what He was coming with. A new covenant that is different from the one He made with Moses, one of forgiveness.
That covenant, the one concering "forgiveness", is long since over.

It's time for you to start accepting a little more personal responsibility for your own thoughts, words and deeds.

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: That's the teaching of Y'shua. You said yourself YHWH does not change His mind. Do you think He changed His mind about this new covenant? He said He was going to change the covenant Himself, through the prophet Yirmiyahu. YHWH always keeps his promises. Always. It's up to us to see this.
See if you can detect the inherent contradiction in the above paragraph.. :-D

There is no contradiction. YHWH said He was going to bring a New Covenant and He did. Show me where YHWH said that the Mosaic covenant was forever and would never be changed. You can't. YHWH never said that.

The contradiction lies in folks that say that a new covenant is not going to happen. They are presuming to contradict YHWH and the scripture.

And that is what you are doing right now. So mind your own business, eh?

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Let me ask you something. According to the precepts of modern Judaism all religions lead to the Father, correct?
Where did you pull that one from? :lol:

Quote: And what Our Father told us through the Prophets was that the Messiah was going to come, when He was coming and what He was coming with. A new covenant that is different from the one He made with Moses, one of forgiveness.
That covenant, the one concering "forgiveness", is long since over.

It's time for you to start accepting a little more personal responsibility for your own thoughts, words and deeds.

Thanks for taking it upon yourself to answer for Duchifas. :lol:

That's exactly what I am doing. And exactly what you are not doing.
Who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't do? You are an authority on nothing.
Quote: That covenant, the one concering "forgiveness", is long since over. A perfect example of your lack of authority. What grounds do you have to make this ridiculous claim? Or to tell an adult to be responsible. I would like to see you tell me I should do something to my face.

What grounds do you have have to call me irresponsible, anyway? You have no idea what responsibility is. Do you have children? Do you work for a living? What do you do besides sitting around all day trying to get people to believe things that are not true? That's pretty messed up, you know that?

Sitting in a penthouse, living on your daddy's money, doesn't give you much room to tell anyone about being responsible. You need to look in a mirror before you tell others about what you suppose their failings are. You're miserable in your life and you know and I know it. But for some reason you fight what you need tooth and nail.

You hate yourself, Paul. It's plain as day. I can help you if you let me.

Wake up, dude.

[Duchifas]

cap'n queasy wrote: You are talking about eating shrimp, Duchifas.

Is that really so bad? Is it really a sin? Murder, theft and adultery, yes, but shrimp eating? Yes, YHWH told the Hebrews not to eat them, but now He tells us that we are beyond that. And He tells us why.

Hey, man, what do you want from my life? I don't know if there is anything wrong with the poor shrimp, except that it is forbidden, therefore, a sin.

I don't think there is something inherently bad about it.

John seems to, though.

John wrote: The point is to understand that sin is forbidden because it's bad...not bad because it's forbidden.

So really, both of us, you and I, have the same question here -- what's so bad about shrimp? I didn't say there was anything bad about it, John did.

So why are you asking me? Ask John. He doesn't want to answer me, perhaphs he will answer you....

If you agree with me that there is nothing "bad" about it except that it is forbidden, then we are in perfect agreement, i.e., I don't eat it because it is forbidden to me, and you can eat it all you want because it is forbidden to you. But if you, like John, think that it is somehow bad from the start, then why do you rationalize eating it? If you want me to phrase it differently, I can ask -- if it is inherently bad, then why would Jesus allow you to eat it?

Quote: Let me ask you something. According to the precepts of modern Judaism all religions lead to the Father, correct?

That's a hard question to answer. All religions? I am not sure if Baal worship leads to the Father. Some religions are better than others. Some things are true in different religions, and some aren't. I'd say the same applies to sects within Judaism, IMHO.

Quote: Why does it seem that you do not feel this way about the followers of Y'shua?

Look, I am not trying to belittle Christianity. If it so appeared, I am sorry. What John said makes very little sense, particularly in the context of Christianity.

So I am curious to figure out why John said that sin is forbidden because it is bad. What's bad about a shrimp?

Do you agree with his statement that I quoted? Do you disagree? He is taking me on a detour somewhere. Maybe you can address the point directly. Thanks.

Quote: We need desparately to make sure it is, in fact, YHWH who we are serving, and not ourselves. Let's look at this with an open mind. No one is going to be condemned for eating a shrimp. But they darn sure will be condemned if they are judged under the Law they insist supercedes what YHWH told us was to happen, through the prophets, and they have not followed this Law in such a way that they are sinless.

Yeah, but as we voluminously exemplified in many threads, we don't quite see eye to eye on what G-d told us was to happen and when and how. So that point is kinda moot for now.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Yeah, but as we voluminously exemplified in many threads, we don't quite see eye to eye on what G-d told us was to happen and when and how. So that point is kinda moot for now.

Yes, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on the point. But this is IMHO a pretty clear prophecy that someday there will be a new covenant. One that is different and one that is based on forgiveness.

Quote: Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


No?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: If it so appeared, I am sorry.

There is no need for that between us, my friend. Say what you mean, and I will as well.

No offense will be taken on my part. I know you are sincere and well-meaning.

:-D

[Duchifas]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If it so appeared, I am sorry.

There is no need for that between us, my friend. Say what you mean, and I will as well.

No offense will be taken on my part. I know you are sincere and well-meaning.

:-D

Same feeling here.

So where do you stand? In your opinion, is sin forbidden because it is bad? Or bad because it is forbidden? With respect to ritual laws/prohibitions.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas,

If God can redeem the spirit of a Gentile; how much less of a deed is it for Him to make pigs clean?


So let's finally decide here, did G-d make pigs clean (biologically)? Yes? No? Don't know?

I don't think pigs were changed biologically. Same is I don't believe Gentiles were changed biologically into ethnic Jews.

I honestly believe that the problem that Jews have with Christianity has less to do with God cleansing pigs and everything to do with God accepting Gentiles on equal terms as He does Jews in the New Covenant.

BTW....I never claimed that eating a shrimp is a sin. Anymore than having sex being a sin after one is married. The New Covenant has been initiated, God told us that we are past the whole diet thing. If He hadn't said that....I'd worry about it.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: If God can redeem the spirit of a Gentile; how much less of a deed is it for Him to make pigs clean?
I don't think pigs are especially clean animals.. not now, and not before Christ either. Surely you're not proposing that Christ ritually washed clean all pigs as part of his mission on Earth?? :?

No. I believe He performed the deed that literally washes all who accept it clean. Once you accept the Truth...there is no need to perform the rituals that point to the Truth.

Rituals serve a useful purpose when done in the manner that they were intended. I believe that every Christian should perform the ritual of baptism. But it would be wrong to get baptized over and over again thinking that it is the act that saves you. The ritual would do more harm than good if incorrectly used.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas,

If God can redeem the spirit of a Gentile; how much less of a deed is it for Him to make pigs clean?


So let's finally decide here, did G-d make pigs clean (biologically)? Yes? No? Don't know?

I don't think pigs were changed biologically. Same is I don't believe Gentiles were changed biologically into ethnic Jews.

Ok, let's go slower. You said that sin is forbidden because it is bad, not the other way around.

I hope you are not going to argue with me that eating pork was a sin for at least some time. I didn't say it, G-d did. He did so here:

Leviticus wrote: after talking about pigs, etc
...
11. And they shall be an abomination for you. You shall not eat of their flesh, and their dead bodies you shall hold in abomination.

Now, can you tell me what was bad about pigs, as opposed to cows, that they had to be forbidden, at least until Jesus arrived?

Quote: I honestly believe that the problem that Jews have with Christianity has less to do with God cleansing pigs and everything to do with God accepting Gentiles on equal terms as He does Jews in the New Covenant.

Be nice, John. There is no need to read superiority/inferiority into a theological disagreement.

The problem that Jews have with Christianity, as I amply demonstrated to you in many threads, is that it doesn't make sense to us. That's why even Jews who don't feel like following the Torah and all its requirements overwhelmingly turn secular, rather than Christian, even though Christianity has no requirements (How did you put it once? "A Christian would not be a Christian if he were required to do anything" - wasn't that it?)

Quote: BTW....I never claimed that eating a shrimp is a sin.

Do you deny that G-d said it at some point?

[John]

Quote: Ok, let's go slower. You said that sin is forbidden because it is bad, not the other way around.

That is correct...I don't believe in moral relativism.

Quote: I hope you are not going to argue with me that eating pork was a sin for at least some time. I didn't say it, G-d did. He did so here:

Leviticus wrote:
after talking about pigs, etc
...
11. And they shall be an abomination for you. You shall not eat of their flesh, and their dead bodies you shall hold in abomination.

Yes....God told a specific people under a specific covenant not to eat certain things.

Quote: Be nice, John. There is no need to read superiority/inferiority into a theological disagreement.

The problem that Jews have with Christianity, as I amply demonstrated to you in many threads, is that it doesn't make sense to us. That's why even Jews who don't feel like following the Torah and all its requirements overwhelmingly turn secular, rather than Christian, even though Christianity has no requirements (How did you put it once? "A Christian would not be a Christian if he were required to do anything" - wasn't that it?)

No...Christianity isn't about doing something because you're required to do it..its doing it because you truly want to. Because you really love God...not that you do things out of obligation.

But you pulled a psholtz there and misquoted me...I said that other Christians do not force people to be Christians by requiring them to do things. Basically I'm saying that you can't force someone to truly believe something...especially the concept of Christianity...only God can give you the Faith to believe.


But I ask you Duchifas...how could I ever be your brother if you can't even believe that it could be part of God's plan to cleans a pig? If He can't cleans pigs....how could he cleans Gentiles?