Political Crossfire Forums

[Jonah]

psholtz wrote: Duchifas wrote: Why are you dissing fundies? You are describing fundamental human nature, that is as common to a pragmatist like you as it is to a fundamentalist like me. In different manifestations, but the principle is the same. ;)
Well, perhaps it's human nature but I didn't have you in my crosshairs when I was making those comments..

Rather I had in mind a certain Zionist Christian Fundamentalist "If I don't see it in the Bible, it must not be true" faction that hails from one of our larger, more Southern States.. :wink:

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Moshe had to deal w/ similar problems.. :lol:

Pardon me, sir, but aren't you a little too fond of asking for the New Testament listing of prophesies I quote from the Law or Prophets. "If I don't see it in the New Testament, it must not be true" might well be your motto, when you're not dancing a little sidestep. :-D

psholtz can quote more Shakespeare than I can shake a spear at.

I'd rather quote chapter and verse, than "act 2, scene 5." :wink:

[psholtz]

Jonah wrote: psholtz wrote: Duchifas wrote: Why are you dissing fundies? You are describing fundamental human nature, that is as common to a pragmatist like you as it is to a fundamentalist like me. In different manifestations, but the principle is the same. ;)
Well, perhaps it's human nature but I didn't have you in my crosshairs when I was making those comments..

Rather I had in mind a certain Zionist Christian Fundamentalist "If I don't see it in the Bible, it must not be true" faction that hails from one of our larger, more Southern States.. :wink:

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Moshe had to deal w/ similar problems.. :lol:

Pardon me, sir, but aren't you a little too fond of asking for the New Testament listing of prophesies I quote from the Law or Prophets. "If I don't see it in the New Testament, it must not be true" might well be your motto, when you're not dancing a little sidestep. :-D
Actually, even you're not part of the group I had in my crosshairs, Jonah.. :lol:

Part the most part, you're sane and reasonable and easy to debate w/.. :tu:

[sLiPpY]

Mailech wrote: I know the shpeil:
Jesus died for your sins. You need the blood of his sacrifice to atone for you. This was accomplished by sacrifices in the Temple, but it is no longer necessary since you have the sacrifice of Jesus.

Now my question. I've read on this forum that when people before Jesus was crucified died they went to a holding pen until then and then Jesus preached to them and then they went to heaven. But what about the people who lived with the temple and brought sacrifices for thier sins, they would not need Jesus to enter Heaven right?

And what about people that G-d punished for thier sins like Moshe and Aahron for example. They recieved thier punishment, does that not atone for them? Why then would they need Jesus to enter Heaven


It's my perception that those who went to the temple, and honored God with blood sacrifices, had no need for the Jesus character. Moshe and Aahron receiving their punishiment, does attone for them. As I also perceive a scriptual basis for God to weigh the fate of individuals without faith, or a differing faith upon their own merits.

Then again, I really don't believe in those things...but do believe we are responsible for our own actions, and should atone with our fellow human beings where we have wronged them.

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: You guys always love to throw this little tidbit in, as if to say Jews just do stuff without feeling anything about G-d. But as you well know, one of the commanments is to Love G-d. And you shall love Hashem, your G-d with all your heart and all your soul and all your resources. And loving your fellow is also one of the commandments, so if you have perfect fulfillment, then you will have done those two as well, right?


Yes. It is not a matter of saying anything about Jews as a people, but of a failure in the religious observance. One that is documented throughout the Tanakh, unless of course you think you are going to get a different result than the one Moses got when you keep hitting the Rock with that stick.

There is the matter of cutting off Moshiach, which happened just as prophesied. At the appointed time. This is all in the scripture. So perhaps every resource is not being utilized when Moshiach is rejected.

A failure of Judaism, I uderstood. But we are not the ones who pick and choose, Christians are. First off, it is not really clear what is documented in Tanach, since it is not a history book. It is never really clear to actually what percentage of the people at a given time are being bad. What does Moshe hitting the rock have to do with anything. Are you going to try to tell me that Moshe did not love G-d? Well if you think that, then you had better reread those chapters. If you think that you are on a higher level than Moshe, then let me ask you, when was the last time G-d spoke to you face to face"

I'm no different than any other person whoever lived, including Moses.

I am a sinner. I am not claiming to be on any higher level than anyone.

This is why I need a redeemer, and so does everone one else, Mailech.