Political Crossfire Forums

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Tares are a plant that looks like wheat but is not usable to make bread because it is inedible. Just like certain teachings that misuse Christian terminology to seem somewhat like Y'shua's teachings are not usable to produce the bread of life. Do you see the reasoning behind the metaphor?

Quote: Do you honestly believe that?
I can see you believe in a false teaching, which is why I followed that up with the comment "Or rather a believer in a false teaching".

You certainly believe in something that you call Christianity, but it is no more based on anything Y'shua taught than tares makes good tasting bread to eat.

But that is neither here nor there. You are perfectly free to believe anything you like. And boy you really use that freedom to the nth degree.
:wink:

You're an intelligent person, Paul, but to what end?

It's your life. Do whatever you want with it. If you change your mind I am always here to talk to you.

You can always come to Y'shua no matter what, remember that, will you?

I will always help you if you want or need it, if I can.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing?

It means nothing without Love for God and your fellow human beings.
You guys always love to throw this little tidbit in, as if to say Jews just do stuff without feeling anything about G-d. But as you well know, one of the commanments is to Love G-d. And you shall love Hashem, your G-d with all your heart and all your soul and all your resources. And loving your fellow is also one of the commandments, so if you have perfect fulfillment, then you will have done those two as well, right?

Quote: Quote: I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right?

Yes, if they are fulfilled perfectly, but who isn't angry at someone for a moment, or thinks they can get away with a seemingly minute transgression. We will be judged on every action if we are judged under the law. YHWH cannot accept any sin. It is a blood debt that must be paid in full to the letter. Y'shua brought the new covenant and paid this blood debt in our place. Out of love.

First off, that is the point of my opening sentance, it is the purpose of the sacrifices and punishment to atone for our sins. The same thing that you claim Jesus dying does for you. So if you are very serious abotu giving sacrifices for any transgression that you might have done, that warrants a sacrifice. (And by the way, being angry is not a recommended activity, but for the life of me I can't remember where it is outlawed in the Torah, and thus a punishable offense.) So there must have been people who where mostly righteous, and where ever they may have had an indiscretion, they took care of it with a sacrifice or some punishment. And so there would be no need for Jesus. As for Abraham, Issac and Jacob, well all he had to follow where the 7 Noahide Laws, I am sure that he did and so would have gone to Heaven.
I have already said my piece on Moses.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Christians believe that it's "as you sow, so shall you reap" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you" (amongst other things).

Clealy Y'shu a said this:
Quote: 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The whole of the Law and the Prophets are summed up in those two statements.

What you have pointed as "the Law" out are not "the Law" but features someone who has the Law written in his heart will exhibit. Those actions do nothing in themselves. They are symptomatic and not causative. Otherwise it is just the same thing as the old covenant with a "different" law. Y'shua did not teach a new set of Laws, but a new, deeper, perspective on the meaning of the Law.

If that makes sense to you.

No it makes no sense, if that was the case, the Torah should be two lines long, and then we would automatically know the rest, since if we do those two the rest would follow, as they are symptomatic and not causative. But the Torah does write out all the commanments, since they in and of themselves have importance and consequence and they are part of what brings us closer to G-d. If they have no effect, you are saying that the Torah was wasting ink i writing them down, but G-d does not waste anything. That would imply imperfection.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

Jonah wrote: Mailech wrote: Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing? You need to believe in the Messiah?

But you believe in G-d. Fulfill all the commandments. I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right? Even someone who does not accept Jesus can get into heaven by perfect fulfillment. But what is perfect fulfillment. Is not the sacrifices a way of perfecting things that you had done wrong, if not what is the point. Is not punishment a way to be forgiven and have your slate cleaned, if not what is the point. G-d does all that He does because He loves us, if punishing us had no point, He would not do it, just for the sake of punishing us.

Mark 10
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

One thing he lacked: The ability to choose to follow Jesus because of his wealth, because of what he had to lose.

You know I really dislike this Communist chapter of the Gospels. G-d blesses someone with wealth, and He gives them this and they are supposed to get closer to Him through the wealth, not by giving it all away. To do that is foolish and rejecting the gift that G-d gave you.
The one thing this guy was lacking was enough learning and knowledge to not go to Jesus for advise in the first place.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

John wrote: Mailech wrote: Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing? You need to believe in the Messiah?

But you believe in G-d. Fulfill all the commandments. I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right? Even someone who does not accept Jesus can get into heaven by perfect fulfillment. But what is perfect fulfillment. Is not punishment a way to be forgiven and have your slate cleaned, if not what is the point. G-d does all that He does because He loves us, if punishing us had no point, He would not do it, just for the sake of punishing us.

Perfect fulfillment would mean to be perfect as God is perfect. Basically you couldn't even have an unclean thought that is out of God's will.

We're not saying that the law has no consequences. Sin has its consequences and the Law explains what those consequences are.

The Law shows us who we are and where we stand. It shows us WHY we need Messiah.
Again you show that you think of G-d as very one dimentional. It is a wonder that you think the G-d who creates us and knows us would give us a Law that we have absolutely no hope of getting perfect and then condemning us to eternal hell for making the smallest of infractions. Is G-d so injust. Why would G-d not reward us for all the good things that we've done. When I pray with deep intent, is G-d saying that was nice, too bad he talked gossip yesterday, oh well, eternal damnation for you. Well nice try. Or if I give charity with the purest of intentions, only to help someone else, will I not be rewarded for doing His Will?

Quote: Quote: Is not the sacrifices a way of perfecting things that you had done wrong, if not what is the point.

They're more of a way to see the seriousness of what we've done...things that we can't see that happen on a spiritual level. Sin kills….sin brings about death.

The point is to understand that sin is forbidden because it's bad...not bad because it's forbidden.

Oh so G-d was lying when he said that the sacrifices can atone for your sin. Was it a typo, I meant realize that it was bad, not atone. I mean there is no point in giving the sacrifice really, just have some steaks instead of burning that perfectly tasty cow.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Quote: Again you show that you think of G-d as very one dimentional. It is a wonder that you think the G-d who creates us and knows us would give us a Law that we have absolutely no hope of getting perfect and then condemning us to eternal hell for making the smallest of infractions. Is G-d so injust. Why would G-d not reward us for all the good things that we've done. When I pray with deep intent, is G-d saying that was nice, too bad he talked gossip yesterday, oh well, eternal damnation for you. Well nice try. Or if I give charity with the purest of intentions, only to help someone else, will I not be rewarded for doing His Will?

Well, I believe that God knows how we really are in our fallen state of sin.

We're self-righteous and want Laws...we want a rule book to prove that we have something to offer God in our own strength.

But it isn’t true…we have nothing to offer Him…nothing. He is the One that has everything to offer. It’s our place to accept Him and be grateful.

Yet we have a hard time with this...we just refuse to believe it....so God gave us what we wanted..AKA 'the rules'.

You say that you can keep the rules....but you know that you don't. So why lie to yourself about it? You know that you don't live up to them rules......that you need a Redeemer. You know...the Law really should humble you, Mailech…

We are rewarded for doing things that please God all the time. It's happening to us constantly. But you're confused about the issue....God doesn't have to reward us for doing what we already ought to do. He doesn't need you...and a slave is not rewarded for doing their job. It's pure Grace if God decides to reward you for something (which He does because He is a God of Love, but He isn't indebted to you).

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Quote: Oh so G-d was lying when he said that the sacrifices can atone for your sin. Was it a typo, I meant realize that it was bad, not atone. I mean there is no point in giving the sacrifice really, just have some steaks instead of burning that perfectly tasty cow.

The sacrifice of animals only covered the sin, it didn't wash it away permanently.

Only the Messiah can propitiate for sin....

If the Mosiac covenant could handle this...there would be no need for the New as explained in Jeremiah chapter 31.

31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

So Mailech....what is the point of this "New" Covenant here....because like you said:
Mailech wrote: G-d does not waste anything. That would imply imperfection.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

John wrote: Well, I believe that God knows how we really are in our fallen state of sin.

We're self-righteous and want Laws...we want a rule book to prove that we have something to offer God in our own strength.

But it isn’t true…we have nothing to offer Him…nothing. He is the One that has everything to offer. It’s our place to accept Him and be grateful.
I never said that the Law is things that we do for G-d. There is nothing that we can do for G-d. The Law is a roadmap for getting closer to G-d. He in His great kindness and wisdom gave us a path to get to him, all you have to do is follow the yellow brick road.

So basically you have the purpose of the Law all bass-ackwards.

G-d says that He will reward us for keeping the Law, that does not sound like it is just a euphamism. "It will be that if you follow My commandments that I command you on this day, to Love Hashem your G-d and serve Him with all your heart and all your soul, then I will give the rain to the land in its time ..."

Quote: You say that you can keep the rules....but you know that you don't. So why lie to yourself about it? You know that you don't live up to them rules......that you need a Redeemer. You know...the Law really should humble you, Mailech… I keep the rules as I can, and I expect that G-d is smart enough to judge me on my level, and not on His level. Could you imagine if people did that. What if your fourth grade teacher gave you an F on a 1 page essay because she could write it better. You would say how rediculous, I am only a fourth-grader, not you. So why do you think less of G-d? That is what boggles my mind the most.

Quote: We are rewarded for doing things that please God all the time. It's happening to us constantly. But you're confused about the issue....God doesn't have to reward us for doing what we already ought to do. He doesn't need you...and a slave is not rewarded for doing their job. It's pure Grace if God decides to reward you for something (which He does because He is a God of Love, but He isn't indebted to you).
So you admit that G-d rewards us for doing good, then how can He condemn us to eternal Hell, where is the reward in that?
Besides we are His servants, but we are also His children.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

John wrote: Quote: Oh so G-d was lying when he said that the sacrifices can atone for your sin. Was it a typo, I meant realize that it was bad, not atone. I mean there is no point in giving the sacrifice really, just have some steaks instead of burning that perfectly tasty cow.

The sacrifice of animals only covered the sin, it didn't wash it away permanently.

Only the Messiah can propitiate for sin....

If the Mosiac covenant could handle this...there would be no need for the New as explained in Jeremiah chapter 31.

31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

So Mailech....what is the point of this "New" Covenant here....because like you said:
Mailech wrote: G-d does not waste anything. That would imply imperfection.

G-d is giving us a second chance. I am sorry, I must have missed the line in Jeremiah that says that you don't have to keep the Torah anymore since that was just a euphamism.

I mean I know that I have exiled you and punished you for thousands of years over something that you had no hope of fulfilling just to make a point, but please, don't think badly of me.
I mean can you imagine if a law was passed that you where not allowed to go to the bathroom. Well, then I am sure that the court system should prosecute each and every person who goes to the bathroom. I mean I know it is impossible to not go to the bathroom and live, but hey the law is the law. What idiocy. Why do you attribute this idiocy to G-d?

G-d made a convenant with Abraham, was that superceded by the Mosiac one. G-d made a covenant with David, did that supercede the Mosaic one. So maybe the new one is not superceding the Moasic covenant, but rather the Davidic one?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Well that reminds me of something Jesus said,

Luke 5

6 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.

37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

38"But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

39" And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

John wrote: Well that reminds me of something Jesus said,

Luke 5

6 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.

37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

38"But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

39" And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Fortunately for me I am not refering to wine or cloth. I am refering to something that never gets old, worn out or out of date, I am refering to the word of G-d. Which never changes and never needs to be updated.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Well that reminds me of something Jesus said,

Luke 5

6 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.

37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

38"But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

39" And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Fortunately for me I am not refering to wine or cloth. I am refering to something that never gets old, worn out or out of date, I am refering to the word of G-d. Which never changes and never needs to be updated.
Actually, they do need to be updated from time to time..

Certainly the Jewish dietary laws concerning pork and shrimp are wildly out of place in the modern era.

Although after chatting w/ some of the Zionist "Christian" fundies on this board for a while, I'm beginning to see why these laws were phrased the way they were. There are, obviously, gradations in which passes for Divine Law amongst the Jews. Some commandments are obviously Divine, like the commandment not to murder or commit adultery, etc. But some are little more than health guidelines or general social etiquette, like the prohibitions against pork and shrimp.

I had always questioned why the Jews phrased *all* such laws -- whether of Divine or of secular origin -- so strongly and made it seem that *all* these laws were of Divine origin, even when many of them obviously weren't.

But after chatting w/ some of the fundies on this board, I'm beginning to see the enormity of the challenge that must have faced those early rabbis. There do exist human creatures on this planet who are soo stupidiflying stubborn, and soo stupifyingly stupidly ignorant, that if you don't just blatanly LIE to them and tell them "GOD SAYS SO" and the commandment of such is here and so, then they will ignore anything that is truthful but which cannot be cited in reference as a "commandment" which God issued. And in their colossal ignorance, they will bring down and completely destroy the communities of which they are a part. Hence the need for Noble Lies. 1+1 = 2? Doesn't matter.. I don't see it written in the Good Book, so therefore it must not be true. Gravity is a 1-over-r-squared action-at-a-distance law? I don't care.. All I see in the Bible is that Jesus said "if a blind man follows another blind man, both will fall into a ditch" .. I don't see Jesus saying anything about 1-over-r-squared action-at-a-distance law. If there really was such a thing, Jesus would have said something about it. Since he didn't, it must not be true.

It's staggering to think that such creatures exist even today, even in a country as "civilized" and "enlightened" as America, but .. lo and behold! There they are!

Noble Lies indeed..

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: You guys always love to throw this little tidbit in, as if to say Jews just do stuff without feeling anything about G-d. But as you well know, one of the commanments is to Love G-d. And you shall love Hashem, your G-d with all your heart and all your soul and all your resources. And loving your fellow is also one of the commandments, so if you have perfect fulfillment, then you will have done those two as well, right?

Yes. It is not a matter of saying anything about Jews as a people, but of a failure in the religious observance. One that is documented throughout the Tanakh, unless of course you think you are going to get a different result than the one Moses got when you keep hitting the Rock with that stick.

There is the matter of cutting off Moshiach, which happened just as prophesied. At the appointed time. This is all in the scripture. So perhaps every resource is not being utilized when Moshiach is rejected.

[/quote]

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Well that reminds me of something Jesus said,

Luke 5

6 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.

37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

38"But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

39" And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Fortunately for me I am not refering to wine or cloth. I am refering to something that never gets old, worn out or out of date, I am refering to the word of G-d. Which never changes and never needs to be updated.

I didn't say that it did.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Well that reminds me of something Jesus said,

Luke 5

6 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.

37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

38"But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

39" And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Fortunately for me I am not refering to wine or cloth. I am refering to something that never gets old, worn out or out of date, I am refering to the word of G-d. Which never changes and never needs to be updated.
btw, what Jesus is talking about here is *not* the "Word of God", or the passing of the "Old" Covenant and coming of a "New" Covenant, etc.

It has reference to something completely different.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Well that reminds me of something Jesus said,

Luke 5

6 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.

37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

38"But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

39" And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Fortunately for me I am not refering to wine or cloth. I am refering to something that never gets old, worn out or out of date, I am refering to the word of G-d. Which never changes and never needs to be updated.
Actually, they do need to be updated from time to time..

Certainly the Jewish dietary laws concerning pork and shrimp are wildly out of place in the modern era.

Although after chatting w/ some of the Zionist "Christian" fundies on this board for a while, I'm beginning to see why these laws were phrased the way they were. There are, obviously, gradations in which passes for Divine Law amongst the Jews. Some commandments are obviously Divine, like the commandment not to murder or commit adultery, etc. But some are little more than health guidelines or general social etiquette, like the prohibitions against pork and shrimp.

I had always questioned why the Jews phrased *all* such laws -- whether of Divine or of secular origin -- so strongly and made it seem that *all* these laws were of Divine origin, even when many of them obviously weren't.

But after chatting w/ some of the fundies on this board, I'm beginning to see the enormity of the challenge that must have faced those early rabbis. There do exist human creatures on this planet who are soo stupidiflying stubborn, and soo stupifyingly stupidly ignorant, that if you don't just blatanly LIE to them and tell them "GOD SAYS SO" and the commandment of such is here and so, then they will ignore anything that is truthful but which cannot be cited in reference as a "commandment" which God issued. And in their colossal ignorance, they will bring down and completely destroy the communities of which they are a part. Hence the need for Noble Lies. 1+1 = 2? Doesn't matter.. I don't see it written in the Good Book, so therefore it must not be true. Gravity is a 1-over-r-squared action-at-a-distance law? I don't care.. All I see in the Bible is that Jesus said "if a blind man follows another blind man, both will fall into a ditch" .. I don't see Jesus saying anything about 1-over-r-squared action-at-a-distance law, then Jesus would have said something about it. Since he didn't, it must not be true.

It's staggering to think that such creatures exist even today, even in a country as "civilized" and "enlightened" as America, but .. lo and behold! There they are!

Noble Lies indeed..

:koo:

:lol:

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: You guys always love to throw this little tidbit in, as if to say Jews just do stuff without feeling anything about G-d. But as you well know, one of the commanments is to Love G-d. And you shall love Hashem, your G-d with all your heart and all your soul and all your resources. And loving your fellow is also one of the commandments, so if you have perfect fulfillment, then you will have done those two as well, right?

Yes. It is not a matter of saying anything about Jews as a people, but of a failure in the religious observance. One that is documented throughout the Tanakh, unless of course you think you are going to get a different result than the one Moses got when you keep hitting the Rock with that stick.

There is the matter of cutting off Moshiach, which happened just as prophesied. At the appointed time. This is all in the scripture. So perhaps every resource is not being utilized when Moshiach is rejected.

A failure of Judaism, I uderstood. But we are not the ones who pick and choose, Christians are. First off, it is not really clear what is documented in Tanach, since it is not a history book. It is never really clear to actually what percentage of the people at a given time are being bad. What does Moshe hitting the rock have to do with anything. Are you going to try to tell me that Moshe did not love G-d? Well if you think that, then you had better reread those chapters. If you think that you are on a higher level than Moshe, then let me ask you, when was the last time G-d spoke to you face to face"

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

psholtz wrote: Actually, they do need to be updated from time to time..

Certainly the Jewish dietary laws concerning pork and shrimp are wildly out of place in the modern era.

Although after chatting w/ some of the Zionist "Christian" fundies on this board for a while, I'm beginning to see why these laws were phrased the way they were. There are, obviously, gradations in which passes for Divine Law amongst the Jews. Some commandments are obviously Divine, like the commandment not to murder or commit adultery, etc. But some are little more than health guidelines or general social etiquette, like the prohibitions against pork and shrimp.

I had always questioned why the Jews phrased *all* such laws -- whether of Divine or of secular origin -- so strongly and made it seem that *all* these laws were of Divine origin, even when many of them obviously weren't.

But after chatting w/ some of the fundies on this board, I'm beginning to see the enormity of the challenge that must have faced those early rabbis. There do exist human creatures on this planet who are soo stupidiflying stubborn, and soo stupifyingly stupidly ignorant, that if you don't just blatanly LIE to them and tell them "GOD SAYS SO" and the commandment of such is here and so, then they will ignore anything that is truthful but which cannot be cited in reference as a "commandment" which God issued. And in their colossal ignorance, they will bring down and completely destroy the communities of which they are a part. Hence the need for Noble Lies. 1+1 = 2? Doesn't matter.. I don't see it written in the Good Book, so therefore it must not be true. Gravity is a 1-over-r-squared action-at-a-distance law? I don't care.. All I see in the Bible is that Jesus said "if a blind man follows another blind man, both will fall into a ditch" .. I don't see Jesus saying anything about 1-over-r-squared action-at-a-distance law. If there really was such a thing, Jesus would have said something about it. Since he didn't, it must not be true.

It's staggering to think that such creatures exist even today, even in a country as "civilized" and "enlightened" as America, but .. lo and behold! There they are!

Noble Lies indeed..

:lol:

Why are you dissing fundies? You are describing fundamental human nature, that is as common to a pragmatist like you as it is to a fundamentalist like me. In different manifestations, but the principle is the same. ;)

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Duchifas wrote: Why are you dissing fundies? You are describing fundamental human nature, that is as common to a pragmatist like you as it is to a fundamentalist like me. In different manifestations, but the principle is the same. ;)
Well, perhaps it's human nature but I didn't have you in my crosshairs when I was making those comments..

Rather I had in mind a certain Zionist Christian Fundamentalist "If I don't see it in the Bible, it must not be true" faction that hails from one of our larger, more Southern States.. :wink:

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Moshe had to deal w/ similar problems.. :lol:

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

psholtz wrote: Duchifas wrote: Why are you dissing fundies? You are describing fundamental human nature, that is as common to a pragmatist like you as it is to a fundamentalist like me. In different manifestations, but the principle is the same. ;)
Well, perhaps it's human nature but I didn't have you in my crosshairs when I was making those comments..

Rather I had in mind a certain Zionist Christian Fundamentalist "If I don't see it in the Bible, it must not be true" faction that hails from one of our larger, more Southern States.. :wink:

Although it wouldn't surprise me if Moshe had to deal w/ similar problems.. :lol:

Dude, Moshe had to deal with 1) 3 million 2) hungry 3) boisterous 4) Jews 5) in the desert. Now THOSE are problems.

Ever been to Israel? :lol: