Political Crossfire Forums

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

I know the shpeil:
Jesus died for your sins. You need the blood of his sacrifice to atone for you. This was accomplished by sacrifices in the Temple, but it is no longer necessary since you have the sacrifice of Jesus.

Now my question. I've read on this forum that when people before Jesus was crucified died they went to a holding pen until then and then Jesus preached to them and then they went to heaven. But what about the people who lived with the temple and brought sacrifices for thier sins, they would not need Jesus to enter Heaven right?

And what about people that G-d punished for thier sins like Moshe and Aahron for example. They recieved thier punishment, does that not atone for them? Why then would they need Jesus to enter Heaven

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

God's Law is Eternal, and it doesn't change.

The Christ existed before Jesus of Nazareth, and it will continue to exist after him as well. Jesus wasn't the "first" Christian, and he certainly won't be the last. As St. Augustine reminds us:

Quote: That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist, from the beginning of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion which already existed began to be called Christianity.

-- St. Augustine

What you express above is the "popular" view of Christianity (that somehow this "God" incarnated on earth and that He "changed" his own Law, etc), but it's both inconsistent w/ Scripture and inconsistent w/ common sense (to say nothing of the Truth).

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Mailech wrote: I know the shpeil:
Jesus died for your sins. You need the blood of his sacrifice to atone for you. This was accomplished by sacrifices in the Temple, but it is no longer necessary since you have the sacrifice of Jesus.

Now my question. I've read on this forum that when people before Jesus was crucified died they went to a holding pen until then and then Jesus preached to them and then they went to heaven. But what about the people who lived with the temple and brought sacrifices for thier sins, they would not need Jesus to enter Heaven right?

And what about people that G-d punished for thier sins like Moshe and Aahron for example. They recieved thier punishment, does that not atone for them? Why then would they need Jesus to enter Heaven

Well, actually it is the sacrifice of Messiah that redeems everyone who will be in Heaven. The people who lived before His first coming had Faith in His future coming and God provided a temporary method sacrifice during the dispensation of Law for their sins. But this was more about keeping a relationship with Him than providing a source of Salvation. The source of Salvation is literally God Himself...the animals where just a ritualistic representation of their Faith in the Messiah who would redeem them. It's all central to Messiah in regards to Salvation.

As Job proclaimed "As for me I KNOW that my Redeemer lives! And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.Even after my skin is destroyed,Yet from my flesh I shall see God;Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another."

Moshe and Aahron had Faith in the coming Messiah and will be in Heaven...they received punishment for their sin for the same reason a born again Christian receives punishment and will experience dryness and lack of relationship between themselves and the Lord if they are in sin. We repent of our sins in order to come back into this relationship...not earn our Salvation. The born again person's Salvation is secure....but they will be miserable as a true believer if they are out of fellowship with the Lord.

Jonah · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 928

Mailech wrote: I know the shpeil:
Jesus died for your sins. You need the blood of his sacrifice to atone for you. This was accomplished by sacrifices in the Temple, but it is no longer necessary since you have the sacrifice of Jesus.

Now my question. I've read on this forum that when people before Jesus was crucified died they went to a holding pen until then and then Jesus preached to them and then they went to heaven. But what about the people who lived with the temple and brought sacrifices for thier sins, they would not need Jesus to enter Heaven right?

And what about people that G-d punished for thier sins like Moshe and Aahron for example. They recieved thier punishment, does that not atone for them? Why then would they need Jesus to enter Heaven

Howdy, Mailech.

The whole enchilada is faith, not keeping the law. That is, keeping the law might keep you out of trouble with God, but you cannot be deemed righteous in God’s eyes by keeping it. Is this a problem? Yes. Those who only keep the law, but don’t live by faith in the Messiah won’t enter Heaven. Even those before Jesus walked the planet!

Jesus himself said, “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. You might say, “Wait a minute, how can I ever obey the law as good as a Pharisee or teacher of the law, much less exceed them?” Only one way: faith in Messiah.

Jesus mentioned that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be in heaven. Abraham and his sons believed in Messiah. How so? Jesus said “Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day, he saw it and was glad.” Abraham saw Messiah’s day though eyes of faith. Faith in what? Faith in God’s promise to him that his offspring would be as numerous as the stars in the sky… His offspring were and are given through the Messiah. How’s that?
Christians refer to Abraham as the “father of faith.”: “Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.” So, everyone who believes in Messiah is the offspring of Abraham, as God sees it.

Romans 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel (good news about Jesus): for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.””

Finally, Paul confronts Peter in his hypocrisy of dining only with Jewish believers and says, “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be attained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

A thought:
Isaiah 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.”

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Matthew 22:34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Here Y'shua explains the Law, if you do not have this Law written in your heart it matters not how closely you follow the 613 Mitzot. One must follow the "spirit" in which the Law is intended.

You probably recognize the first and foremost law as the Shema. And the next one is like it in importance.

For example one can recite the Shema everyday, but if they do not carry this in their heart it is just some words they repeat daily. Rote repetition of certain words does not necessarily translate into a faithful relationship.

What good is it if your wife tells you she loves you every day when you leave for work if she is having an affair with the milkman while you are gone? See what I mean?

Take a good look at Yermiyahu 31, particularly verses 27-40. To think that the works of our own hands will make things right between humanity and YHWH is spiritual fornication. It is better to judge ourselves rightly and ask for forgiveness for what we are, otherwise we are just like the unfaithful wife who kisses her husband and tells him she loves him, but runs around behind his back. We think we are getting something better for ourselves by our actions than what God granted us to have and be.

Y'shua brought the New Covenant, in which the law will be written in men's hearts rather than in non-living stone. Take a look at Yermiyahu 31, particularly verses 27-40.

I was wondering if one of the precepts of modern Judaism is that there are many ways to YHWH, why do they seem to hold Christianity to be apostate or heretical when they don't hold a religion such as Islam or Buddhism in the same regard? It looks like a double standard.

That doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Perhaps it is something to do with the history of Christianity.

At any rate, there is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son, rather than through our own works. You can find this concept throughout the Tanakh.

For example.
Quote: Psalm 2:1 Why are the nations in an uproar

And the peoples devising a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And the rulers take counsel together

Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us tear their fetters apart

And cast away their cords from us!"

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,

The Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then He will speak to them in His anger

And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King

Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "

10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;

Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

For His wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Y'shua will claim His inheritence very soon, I feel. Have faith in the promises of YHWH, they will come to be. Everyone who takes refuge in the Son is blessed with salvation and eternal life in the presence of the Almighty.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2601

Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing? You need to believe in the Messiah?

But you believe in G-d. Fulfill all the commandments. I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right? Even someone who does not accept Jesus can get into heaven by perfect fulfillment. But what is perfect fulfillment. Is not the sacrifices a way of perfecting things that you had done wrong, if not what is the point. Is not punishment a way to be forgiven and have your slate cleaned, if not what is the point. G-d does all that He does because He loves us, if punishing us had no point, He would not do it, just for the sake of punishing us.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Mailech wrote: Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences.
No, the Law is Everything, and man has an obligation and a responsibility to fulfill it.

Where Christians and Jews differ is in their conception of the Law. Jews believe that it's 613 mitzoh that were left behind by Moses.. Christians believe that it's "as you sow, so shall you reap" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you" (amongst other things).

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing?

It means nothing without Love for God and your fellow human beings.

Quote: I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right?

Yes, if they are fulfilled perfectly, but who isn't angry at someone for a moment, or thinks they can get away with a seemingly minute transgression. We will be judged on every action if we are judged under the law. YHWH cannot accept any sin. It is a blood debt that must be paid in full to the letter. Y'shua brought the new covenant and paid this blood debt in our place. Out of love.

Take a look at this. It's called the sermon on the mount. Perhaps it will help you understand this perspective better.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=Matthew+5&section=0&translation=nas&oq=Psalm%25202&new=1&nb=ps&ng=2&ncc=2

What we humans see as innocuous, looks a lot different in the eyes of God. Y'shua explains something of this principle in this sermon. It's not very long, so give it a read and give us your feedback on it. :-D

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Christians believe that it's "as you sow, so shall you reap" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you" (amongst other things).

Clealy Y'shu a said this:
Quote: 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The whole of the Law and the Prophets are summed up in those two statements.

What you have pointed as "the Law" out are not "the Law" but features someone who has the Law written in his heart will exhibit. Those actions do nothing in themselves. They are symptomatic and not causative. Otherwise it is just the same thing as the old covenant with a "different" law. Y'shua did not teach a new set of Laws, but a new, deeper, perspective on the meaning of the Law.

If that makes sense to you.

Jonah · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 928

Mailech wrote: Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing? You need to believe in the Messiah?

But you believe in G-d. Fulfill all the commandments. I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right? Even someone who does not accept Jesus can get into heaven by perfect fulfillment. But what is perfect fulfillment. Is not the sacrifices a way of perfecting things that you had done wrong, if not what is the point. Is not punishment a way to be forgiven and have your slate cleaned, if not what is the point. G-d does all that He does because He loves us, if punishing us had no point, He would not do it, just for the sake of punishing us.

Mark 10
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

One thing he lacked: The ability to choose to follow Jesus because of his wealth, because of what he had to lose.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Christians believe that it's "as you sow, so shall you reap" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you" (amongst other things).

Clealy Y'shu a said this:
Quote: 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The whole of the Law and the Prophets are summed up in those two statements.
If you choose to obey the Law, then this is the whole of the Law and Prophets for you and you will reap the fruits that you have sown by (a) loving God w/ all your heart and (b) loving thy neighbor as thyself. If you choose to disobey the Law, you will reap tares accordingly.

Either way, you reap what you sow.

The phrase "the Law and the Prophets," btw, is just a colloquial euphasism for the "Old Testament".. but as there was no "Old Testament" in the time of Christ, Jesus referred to that collection of writings as the Law and the Prophets. You seem to want to read something "deeper" into that phrase, but I don't think that's necessary.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Mailech wrote: Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing? You need to believe in the Messiah?

But you believe in G-d. Fulfill all the commandments. I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right? Even someone who does not accept Jesus can get into heaven by perfect fulfillment. But what is perfect fulfillment. Is not punishment a way to be forgiven and have your slate cleaned, if not what is the point. G-d does all that He does because He loves us, if punishing us had no point, He would not do it, just for the sake of punishing us.

Perfect fulfillment would mean to be perfect as God is perfect. Basically you couldn't even have an unclean thought that is out of God's will.

We're not saying that the law has no consequences. Sin has its consequences and the Law explains what those consequences are.

The Law shows us who we are and where we stand. It shows us WHY we need Messiah.

Quote: Is not the sacrifices a way of perfecting things that you had done wrong, if not what is the point.

They're more of a way to see the seriousness of what we've done...things that we can't see that happen on a spiritual level. Sin kills….sin brings about death.

The point is to understand that sin is forbidden because it's bad...not bad because it's forbidden.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: Mailech wrote: Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing? You need to believe in the Messiah?

But you believe in G-d. Fulfill all the commandments. I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right? Even someone who does not accept Jesus can get into heaven by perfect fulfillment. But what is perfect fulfillment. Is not punishment a way to be forgiven and have your slate cleaned, if not what is the point. G-d does all that He does because He loves us, if punishing us had no point, He would not do it, just for the sake of punishing us.

Perfect fulfillment would mean to be perfect as God is perfect.
Have a look at Matthew 5:48..

The commandment there seems pretty clear and positive to me.

Jonah · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 928

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Matthew 22:34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Here Y'shua explains the Law, if you do not have this Law written in your heart it matters not how closely you follow the 613 Mitzot. One must follow the "spirit" in which the Law is intended.

You probably recognize the first and foremost law as the Shema. And the next one is like it in importance.

For example one can recite the Shema everyday, but if they do not carry this in their heart it is just some words they repeat daily. Rote repetition of certain words does not necessarily translate into a faithful relationship.

What good is it if your wife tells you she loves you every day when you leave for work if she is having an affair with the milkman while you are gone? See what I mean?

Take a good look at Yermiyahu 31, particularly verses 27-40. To think that the works of our own hands will make things right between humanity and YHWH is spiritual fornication. It is better to judge ourselves rightly and ask for forgiveness for what we are, otherwise we are just like the unfaithful wife who kisses her husband and tells him she loves him, but runs around behind his back. We think we are getting something better for ourselves by our actions than what God granted us to have and be.

Y'shua brought the New Covenant, in which the law will be written in men's hearts rather than in non-living stone. Take a look at Yermiyahu 31, particularly verses 27-40.

I was wondering if one of the precepts of modern Judaism is that there are many ways to YHWH, why do they seem to hold Christianity to be apostate or heretical when they don't hold a religion such as Islam or Buddhism in the same regard? It looks like a double standard.

That doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Perhaps it is something to do with the history of Christianity.

At any rate, there is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son, rather than through our own works. You can find this concept throughout the Tanakh.

For example.
Quote: Psalm 2:1 Why are the nations in an uproar

And the peoples devising a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And the rulers take counsel together

Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us tear their fetters apart

And cast away their cords from us!"

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,

The Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then He will speak to them in His anger

And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King

Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "

10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;

Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

For His wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Y'shua will claim His inheritence very soon, I feel. Have faith in the promises of YHWH, they will come to be. Everyone who takes refuge in the Son is blessed with salvation and eternal life in the presence of the Almighty.

cap'n my cap'n (small c) :-D ,

Great post.

I love that quote from Psalm 2, especially how it mentions the "Son".

Jonah · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 928

John wrote: Mailech wrote: Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing? You need to believe in the Messiah?

But you believe in G-d. Fulfill all the commandments. I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right? Even someone who does not accept Jesus can get into heaven by perfect fulfillment. But what is perfect fulfillment. Is not punishment a way to be forgiven and have your slate cleaned, if not what is the point. G-d does all that He does because He loves us, if punishing us had no point, He would not do it, just for the sake of punishing us.

Perfect fulfillment would mean to be perfect as God is perfect. Basically you couldn't even have an unclean thought that is out of God's will.

We're not saying that the law has no consequences. Sin has its consequences and the Law explains what those consequences are.

The Law shows us who we are and where we stand. It shows us WHY we need Messiah.

Quote: Is not the sacrifices a way of perfecting things that you had done wrong, if not what is the point.

They're more of a way to see the seriousness of what we've done...things that we can't see that happen on a spiritual level. Sin kills….sin brings about death.

The point is to understand that sin is forbidden because it's bad...not bad because it's forbidden.

Two great points. Regarding the first one... better to leave it to Jesus and and just accept his righteousness imputed when we "believe on" him.
This motivates us to want to obey him and fulfill the perfect law of love for God and towards others. That we love one another as Christ loved us.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Jonah wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Let me see if I understand. What you guys are saying is that the law has no consequences. Even if you fufill it perfectly, it means nothing? You need to believe in the Messiah?

But you believe in G-d. Fulfill all the commandments. I think that you would agree that that is also a way to get into heaven right? Even someone who does not accept Jesus can get into heaven by perfect fulfillment. But what is perfect fulfillment. Is not punishment a way to be forgiven and have your slate cleaned, if not what is the point. G-d does all that He does because He loves us, if punishing us had no point, He would not do it, just for the sake of punishing us.

Perfect fulfillment would mean to be perfect as God is perfect. Basically you couldn't even have an unclean thought that is out of God's will.

We're not saying that the law has no consequences. Sin has its consequences and the Law explains what those consequences are.

The Law shows us who we are and where we stand. It shows us WHY we need Messiah.

Quote: Is not the sacrifices a way of perfecting things that you had done wrong, if not what is the point.

They're more of a way to see the seriousness of what we've done...things that we can't see that happen on a spiritual level. Sin kills….sin brings about death.

The point is to understand that sin is forbidden because it's bad...not bad because it's forbidden.

Two great points. Regarding the first one... better to leave it to Jesus and and just accept his righteousness imputed when we "believe on" him.
This motivates us to want to obey him and fulfill the perfect law of love for God and towards others. That we love one another as Christ loved us.

Exactly. :-D

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Jonah wrote: Two great points. Regarding the first one... better to leave it to Jesus and and just accept his righteousness imputed when we "believe on" him.
Righteousness is *never* imputed in this manner..

In fact, it's almost criminal to believe that it could be.

Quote: This motivates us to want to obey him and fulfill the perfect law of love for God and towards others. That we love one another as Christ loved us.
I don't see how building your house on a pile of sand could possibly motivate you in this manner.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: The point is to understand that sin is forbidden because it's bad...not bad because it's forbidden.

In that case, I am not getting something here.

As I understand it from our prior conversations, Jesus came and what was forbidden before became allowed.

But if sin is forbidden because it is bad, rather than bad because it is forbidden, then what changed with Jesus? Did he change the nature of sin? Did he make it from bad to good (or neutral)?

Basically, you are saying that eating pork with shrimp sauce was forbidden because it was bad. I understand (well, not really, but whatever) how you say that Jesus removed the prohibition by fulfilling the law, atoning for your sins, etc. But I never heard that he made what was previously bad (sin) into something good. So as far as I understand, sin should still remain bad, because it is.....bad, not because it was merely forbidden.

So when you say that Jesus died for your sins and fulfilled the law, so now you can eat shrimp, I don't agree with that logic, but I understand it.

But when you say that sin was forbidden because it is bad, then unless Jesus somehow made it into good, I don't understand how Christians can rationalize eating pork or transgressing any of the other prohibitions...

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: The point is to understand that sin is forbidden because it's bad...not bad because it's forbidden.

In that case, I am not getting something here.

As I understand it from our prior conversations, Jesus came and what was forbidden before became allowed.
Nothing is "forbidden" per se. Man has been gifted Free Will, and such, he may "do as he wilt", if he so desires, although chances are, unless the will of man aligns itself w/ the Will of God, man will only succeed in destroying himself, and quite possibly his Soul along w/ it.

But if man is willing to live w/ these consequences, then no, nothing is "forbidden"..

Quote: But if sin is forbidden because it is bad, rather than bad because it is forbidden, then what changed with Jesus? Did he change the nature of sin? Did he make it from bad to good (or neutral)?
Jesus didn't change anything.

The Law is Eternal. Jesus does not, and did not, and would not, have the power to change the Law.

However, the bulk of what passes for "Law" amongst the Jews is clearly absurd. This was the message of Jesus' teachings.

Quote: Basically, you are saying that eating pork with shrimp sauce was forbidden because it was bad.
It may have been "forbidden" in a long-forgotten era (before modern meat processing) when eating such meats may have carried w/ it deleterious health risks. So long as you're willing to live w/ the consequences of eating animal flesh (which even in this day will cloud the mind and judgment, and still carries non-zero health risks), there's nothing "sinful" about it.

Quote: So when you say that Jesus died for your sins and fulfilled the law, so now you can eat shrimp, I don't agree with that logic, but I understand it.
There are few people who understand much of anything John, or these fundamentalist "Christians" (<- who really are *not* Christians) have to say.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

psholtz wrote: Jonah wrote: Two great points. Regarding the first one... better to leave it to Jesus and and just accept his righteousness imputed when we "believe on" him.
Righteousness is *never* imputed in this manner..

In fact, it's almost criminal to believe that it could be.

Quote: This motivates us to want to obey him and fulfill the perfect law of love for God and towards others. That we love one another as Christ loved us.
I don't see how building your house on a pile of sand could possibly motivate you in this manner.

Dude...quit voting for yourself. :lol: