Political Crossfire Forums

[mendosan]

I have just been thinking wouldn't life be simpler if us Westerners could just butt out of other peoples affairs and sort out our own problems. I know its impossible but it would be nice we managed to drag ourselves througth the Renaissance and the Enlightenment we Industrialized its not our fault we have, for the most part free happy lives I will finish with a quote

"I Know of no instance in history of a nation being educated by another nation into self-goverment and Independence every nation has fought its way up in the world as the English have done." -Sir Alfred Lyall the British imperial administrator 1882

Lets leave everyone alone!

[combatbaby]

yeah! let all those people in africa kill themselves in civil war and genocide. it's their own fault, right?

nope. they learned it first hand from brutal european imperialism. e.g. king leopold's congo is pretty much as brutal as the conflict in the congo today. i think the west should at least try to help out

but i do agree, the west has a lot of issues we need to deal with. unfortunately, consumers need those blood diamonds as well

[dgs_vex]

that would mean partially dissolving the UN(actually its a large part). but then agian, people dont like the UN for some reason(how its run).

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Lets leave everyone alone!

That's what we should do. The third world did not 'learn' violence from us, it's not our responsibility, and most importantly it does more harm than good.

As for the UN: all buildings in our countries should immediately be homesteaded by enterprising individuals and all funding cut off. There is no justfication for it.

[lowchen]

combatbaby wrote: nope. they learned it first hand from brutal european imperialism. e.g. king leopold's congo is pretty much as brutal as the conflict in the congo today. i think the west should at least try to help out

but i do agree, the west has a lot of issues we need to deal with. unfortunately, consumers need those blood diamonds as well

I respectfully disagree. As someone born in Asia I can state with a high level of certainty that we had violent oppressive elements with no help from the West. Maybe Westerners just need to know that we are no different from anyone else. warts and all.

[eynon]

lowchen wrote: combatbaby wrote: nope. they learned it first hand from brutal european imperialism. e.g. king leopold's congo is pretty much as brutal as the conflict in the congo today. i think the west should at least try to help out

but i do agree, the west has a lot of issues we need to deal with. unfortunately, consumers need those blood diamonds as well

I respectfully disagree. As someone born in Asia I can state with a high level of certainty that we had violent oppressive elements with no help from the West. Maybe Westerners just need to know that we are no different from anyone else. warts and all.

:lol: You know I heard a professor in college actually say that before the age of European expansion that the rest of the world lived in "harmony"....he got a round of aplause from the audience. As a Chinese Civ major I found the whole thing both disturbingly niave and condecendingly racist.

[lowchen]

Very much in agreement. While the West has done some horrible things and marvelous ones at that so have we Easterners. Its so typical to say "those poeple we just so nice and gentle before we civilized them and they unfortunately learned our bad traits as well" Give it a break.

[Lee_p413]

I think that we need to back out of world issues on some respects.

But many issues are more complicated. Take the UN for example:
- The U.N. would lose a good chunk of its power and clout if the United States dropped out. Not bigheadedness in any way, it's just fact - the US does have a big military. That would limit even more the U.N.'s ability to peacekeep. We shouldn't be responsible for limiting that.
- On the other hand, we don't like the U.N. They, collectively, tend to disagree with anything simply because we're the US. We should just pull out, in that respect.

Or third world countries: can we afford to allow them to kill each other by the millions?
Or can we allow Iran to build nuclear weapons capable of carrying out the threat their very leaders are making to an ally, Israel?
Or can we withdraw from Iraq and leave the country in civil war and ruin?

See what I mean? It's difficult to take a definitive position on these issues because there are pros and cons, arguments for both sides that are quite logical.

[eynon]

lowchen wrote: Very much in agreement. While the West has done some horrible things and marvelous ones at that so have we Easterners. Its so typical to say "those poeple we just so nice and gentle before we civilized them and they unfortunately learned our bad traits as well" Give it a break.

Personally I'm not sure it the West ever reached the cultural sophisication of Ming China or Tokogawa Japan....at least not until the late 18th century.

One of my ultimate conclusions from first studying and then living in the East was how little divide actually exists between the 2 groups. If only a few things had gone differently it would have been the Chinese who colinized the New World, and began the industrial revolution not the Europeans. Early European explorers were aware of this, and it was only later, in the 19th century that racist intellectuals and eugenicists sought to prove that Whites were superior to everyone else.

This continued well into the 20th century, until after WW2 when a intellectual back-lash went totally the other way. Westerners were no longer superior, but corrupt and evil, while the tradiational and quaint "civilizations of color"(yes I've heard profs use that term) became morally and spiritually superior.

Course the irony of this all is how bloody racist the whole thing is, these intellectuals still put other civilzations in their terms instead of on the terms of the civilization itself.

[Tepic]

It's like - people can't think; they can only substitute one set of prejudices for another... :shock:

I think I'm beginning to understand the motives of some of those White Nationalists. Not that I in any way agree with White Nationalism, but I do think self-hatred isn't the answer. It's less immediately destructive than racism, certainly, but it might pave the way for things to swing in the other direction... :-|

[Bubbles]

I'm wondering if the reason behind Americas efforts to discredit the UN (and let's not forget the many many arms of the UN...it's not just about the war effort) could be to do with the US owing the UN over $1 billion in dues.

Imagine what that billion could do for UNICEF or any of the other branches that come under the United Nations banner. I personally would hate to see the demise of the UN. I just think the security council branch needs to be better managed and countries, such as the US, need to let them do the work they are signatory to. The UN also needs to hold countries that breach international laws accountable. They are a bit of a toothless tiger, and I think this is more as a result of countries fabricating all manner of falsehoods against them. Perhaps if they were stationed in a neutral country would be a better option. The UN and Interpol should have handled the current terrorism issue...not the US and her coalition.

Now....back to the thread. I believe the west, for the most part are elitist. We think we are the world's police. We install dictators and support them. How do you suppose that makes the west look when the likes of Saddam Hussein and Ariel Sharon (both brutal killers) are supported and funded by the west? Any wonder these people hate us.

[TwinkieDP]

mendosan wrote: I have just been thinking wouldn't life be simpler if us Westerners could just butt out of other peoples affairs and sort out our own problems. I know its impossible but it would be nice we managed to drag ourselves througth the Renaissance and the Enlightenment we Industrialized its not our fault we have, for the most part free happy lives I will finish with a quote

"I Know of no instance in history of a nation being educated by another nation into self-goverment and Independence every nation has fought its way up in the world as the English have done." -Sir Alfred Lyall the British imperial administrator 1882

Lets leave everyone alone!

The world has never been made up of isolated pockets of development and innovation. There has always been an integrated world economy. The Renaissance and Industrial Revolution did not occur independent of forces outside of Europe. The development of mathematics in Europe during this time was built upon Arabic mathematics from the previous time. While European efforts made in world Exploration were admirable, it was not a unique event in World history. I'm sure you've heard of Zheng He of the Ming Dynasty, who at around the same time sailed to the SouthEast asian islands, to India, and even to crossing the Indian ocean to the East Coast of Africa. Also despite a so - called Flowering of intellectual achievements during the Renaissance:

Quote: Historians now point out that most of the negative social factors popularly associated with the "medieval" period - poverty, ignorance, warfare, religious and political persecution, and so forth - seem to have actually worsened during this age of Machiavelli, the Wars of Religion, the corrupt Borgia Popes, and the intensified witch-hunts of the 16th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

[lester1/2jr]

I agree with robin hood.

My ancestors came to the united States in no small part because of it's geographical advantage. It didn't take a genius to see the correlation between the fact that there was a war on (the franco prussian war) and the fact that they were eating rats and grass for breakfast. Had they known they would have been living in fear of terror attacks because their government took advantage of the prosperity created by the citizens to become an Empire, they probably would have stuck with the rat /grass soup.


I believe we have to embrace isolationism or it will be forced on us in a way we might not like. George bush is trying to put the entire muslim world under martial law. We can't afford it, it doesn't make us safer and we have no right to do it

[loquitor]

the notion of "butting out" has alot of appeal. not so sure about its desirability or practicality. for instance, just watching cnn the syrian ambassador to the u.s. complains that the u.s.'s lack of involvement is a part of the reason for the hostilities. some of the pundits argue that getting closer w/ some governments such as iran, north korea etal would eliminate some of the conditions leading to hostilities.

re the college professor: wow, those kids may as well donate their tuition to a charity. the proposition that the west has taught violence to the east is, to put it nicely, fanciful at best.

[TwinkieDP]

Quote: I agree with robin hood.

My ancestors came to the united States in no small part because of it's geographical advantage. It didn't take a genius to see the correlation between the fact that there was a war on (the franco prussian war) and the fact that they were eating rats and grass for breakfast. Had they known they would have been living in fear of terror attacks because their government took advantage of the prosperity created by the citizens to become an Empire, they probably would have stuck with the rat /grass soup.


I believe we have to embrace isolationism or it will be forced on us in a way we might not like. George bush is trying to put the entire muslim world under martial law. We can't afford it, it doesn't make us safer and we have no right to do it

Leave people alone? Reverting to isolationism? I think its impractical in this day and age for such a policy. Even before modern times there has been some sort of global trade. It was just not as apparent due to distances which impede flow of Goods/information and ideas. But today, the world really has become a lot smaller.

However, we still have differences in cultures, languages and ways of life to be worked out. Where there are differences, you can expect conflict. No body likes war or any kind of military action, but there is no way are we able to go back to the way things were thousands of years ago, where humanity lived in isolated pockets of tribes.

Who knows, perhaps the future lies in a World Government, and humans will be colonizing space...

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Leave people alone? Reverting to isolationism? I think its impractical in this day and age for such a policy. Even before modern times there has been some sort of global trade.

Isolationism does not mean prohibiting the free exchnage of goods and services across international borders....

[TwinkieDP]

Robin Hood wrote: Quote: Leave people alone? Reverting to isolationism? I think its impractical in this day and age for such a policy. Even before modern times there has been some sort of global trade.

Isolationism does not mean prohibiting the free exchnage of goods and services across international borders.... Thats nice and all, but when in history has cross-national politics not been linked to economics?

[mendosan]

TwinkieDP wrote: mendosan wrote: I have just been thinking wouldn't life be simpler if us Westerners could just butt out of other peoples affairs and sort out our own problems. I know its impossible but it would be nice we managed to drag ourselves througth the Renaissance and the Enlightenment we Industrialized its not our fault we have, for the most part free happy lives I will finish with a quote

"I Know of no instance in history of a nation being educated by another nation into self-goverment and Independence every nation has fought its way up in the world as the English have done." -Sir Alfred Lyall the British imperial administrator 1882

Lets leave everyone alone!

The world has never been made up of isolated pockets of development and innovation. There has always been an integrated world economy. The Renaissance and Industrial Revolution did not occur independent of forces outside of Europe. The development of mathematics in Europe during this time was built upon Arabic mathematics from the previous time. While European efforts made in world Exploration were admirable, it was not a unique event in World history. I'm sure you've heard of Zheng He of the Ming Dynasty, who at around the same time sailed to the SouthEast asian islands, to India, and even to crossing the Indian ocean to the East Coast of Africa. Also despite a so - called Flowering of intellectual achievements during the Renaissance:

Quote: Historians now point out that most of the negative social factors popularly associated with the "medieval" period - poverty, ignorance, warfare, religious and political persecution, and so forth - seem to have actually worsened during this age of Machiavelli, the Wars of Religion, the corrupt Borgia Popes, and the intensified witch-hunts of the 16th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

Your right about the Renascence being influenced from outside, but Industrialization was Western European no credible Historian would argue otherwise I cant think of any that would.

[X-Shocker]

Yes, the world would have been much better off without the "White man's Burden."

It's a little too late for leaving the rest of the world alone.

[TwinkieDP]

X-Shocker wrote: Yes, the world would have been much better off without the "White man's Burden."

It's a little too late for leaving the rest of the world alone. Burden to do what? To plunder the resources of foreign lands? To enslave local populace for economic gains of your home nation? To enforce Unequal trade treaties through the show of military might? To continue this charade of maintaining the Dollar - Hegemony?

How is it that a government which is indebt up to its eyeballs can continue to wage foreign wars, maintain an overwhelmingly expensive armed force, yet still allow its citizens to live this unsustainable lifestyle? You only have to look at the labels on all your manufactured consumer goods to see that America hardly makes anything on her own anymore, besides Cars, Guns and Bombs. Someone is working like a slave to maintain American hegemony, and you can be sure it ain't American citizens themselves.