Political Crossfire Forums

[steen]

Gilbert1908 wrote: The folks who study the subject, that is embryologists, are quite clear that human life begins at conception. That is a gross misrepresentation, as NO embryologist will ever claim that the sperm or egg are not alive.

Quote: Scientifically there is simply no question about this. You KNOW what I think about people who lie about science. So why do you do it?

[steen]

Plodder wrote: Quote: Proof that it is murder? muder is the killing of innocent human life. Nonsense. It is the illegal killing of a person.

Quote: as I have shown even lawful killing can be murder. No, you have not.

Quote: and WWII scholar can tell you that. How so? Are you back to the stupid claims you made about the Jews in Germany? Any other lies and ignorant nonsense you want to spew

Quote: an embryo is human life since there is nothing potential about it So is then a human tumor or a hydatidiform mole. Nice going there. :roll:

Quote: The embry is innocent since it has never commited a crime, More nonsense. It is guilty of using the woman's body against her will. By your definition, a parasite is also innocent. yet we kill them off with no hesitation.

Quote: and when it ceaes to function because of some procedure it is dead. An embryo having been killed after having done no crimes is murder even if the laws says otheriwise. Your stupid claim is false.

Quote: Law is not always right and that is what this forum is about. Well, it now has become about pro-life habitual liars. When you guys stop lying, spewing falsehoods and try for deceit, then it again can become about abortion.

Quote: Quote: The question you pose is not when life begins but when does a human life have enough value to be protected. The issue you raise is the very heart of the issue of abortion; when does human life have value AND how is that value determined? you only get life once and to steal it away is murder. Another lie.

[LostSoul3412]

Plodder wrote: muder is the killing of innocent human life. as I have shown even lawful killing can be murder.

It depends upon which definition you use, I use the legal definition where murder is a crime, and under American law abortion is not illegal.

Plodder wrote: an embryo is human life since there is nothing potential about it except that it will become an adult in the future.

Then I ask you the same question I asked AllAmericanMan:

Is the seed equal to the flower?

Plodder wrote: The embry is innocent since it has never commited a crime,

I suppose that would depend upon what you believe the state of nature for a human is. John Locke would agree with you, however, Thomas Hobbes would argue against you.

Plodder wrote: and when it ceaes to function because of some procedure it is dead.

How is an embryo functioning?

Plodder wrote: An embryo having been killed after having done no crimes is murder even if the laws says otheriwise. Law is not always right and that is what this forum is about.

I agree that the law is not always right, for example I believe that any law that restricts the rights of the individual should be abolished. However, just because I find myself agreeing with this particular law, does not mean that I support all laws.

Plodder wrote: you only get life once and to steal it away is murder. it should alwats be protected.

How can you steal what is not there?

[Gilbert1908]

steen wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: The folks who study the subject, that is embryologists, are quite clear that human life begins at conception. That is a gross misrepresentation, as NO embryologist will ever claim that the sperm or egg are not alive.

Quote: Scientifically there is simply no question about this. You KNOW what I think about people who lie about science. So why do you do it?

NO embryologist would ever claim that either a sperm or an egg (ovum to be accurate), is a HUMAN LIFE. They will virtually all agree that human individuals are created at conception as I have posted here numerous times and to which you have NEVER provided a single independant refutation.

I made my truthful statment because I do not consider, care or respect your opinion or anything you have to say on any subject or matter.

You statements are almost always simplistic vapid negations containing nothing of substance, they represent nothing more than childish taunting and are less worthy of attention than fly crap in a hurricane.

[LostSoul3412]

Gilbert1908 wrote: The folks who study the subject, that is embryologists, are quite clear that human life begins at conception.

I have debated with you many times, Gilbet1908, and I do not doubt you have evidence for your claims, but if you could please provide them, I would greatly appreciate it so that I can better understand what embryologists claim. Mostly for my own curiosity, pardon my ignorance, but I have never heard of embryology as a field of study.

Gilbert1908 wrote: when does human life have value AND how is that value determined?

I believe that to be the true issue of abortion, not the issue of life itself, but that value of that life (both when, and how much). However, we cannot forget that the mother must also be granted value as well, since women are not mere "baby makers", but unique individuals with their own rights and their own value.

[steen]

Gilbert1908 wrote: steen wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: The folks who study the subject, that is embryologists, are quite clear that human life begins at conception. That is a gross misrepresentation, as NO embryologist will ever claim that the sperm or egg are not alive.

Quote: Scientifically there is simply no question about this. You KNOW what I think about people who lie about science. So why do you do it?

NO embryologist would ever claim that either a sperm or an egg (ovum to be accurate), is a HUMAN LIFE. but they will argue that the cells are human and they are alive. the question was about 'human life," not "A human life." You should know that the words you use do matter here.

Quote: They will virtually all agree that human individuals are created at conception as I have posted here numerous times and to which you have NEVER provided a single independant refutation. Actually, they will agree that the zygote is "created" at conception. If you want a consensus about whether it is an "individual," then you have to look far and wide, and I doubt you will find it.

Quote: I made my truthful statment because I do not consider, care or respect your opinion or anything you have to say on any subject or matter. No you misrepresented your belief as fact and evoked science in the process. When you misrepresent science, then I WILL challenge you. ALWAYS. If you don't like it, then simply stop using science for your misrepresentations.

If you lie about science, I WILL challenge you. EVERY time.

Quote: You statements are almost always simplistic vapid negations containing nothing of substance, they represent nothing more than childish taunting and are less worthy of attention than fly crap in a hurricane. You need to stop taking to the mirror.

[Plodder]

Quote: Actually, they will agree that the zygote is "created" at conception. If you want a consensus about whether it is an "individual," then you have to look far and wide, and I doubt you will find it.
proof? Quote: but they will argue that the cells are human and they are alive. the question was about 'human life," not "A human life." You should know that the words you use do matter here. wit... proof? Quote: No you misrepresented your belief as fact and evoked science in the process. When you misrepresent science, then I WILL challenge you. ALWAYS. If you don't like it, then simply stop using science for your misrepresentations.

If you lie about science, I WILL challenge you. EVERY time.
proof? or will id be dissapointed agaion? Quote: You need to stop taking to the mirror. troll

[Gilbert1908]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: The folks who study the subject, that is embryologists, are quite clear that human life begins at conception.

I have debated with you many times, Gilbet1908, and I do not doubt you have evidence for your claims, but if you could please provide them, I would greatly appreciate it so that I can better understand what embryologists claim. Mostly for my own curiosity, pardon my ignorance, but I have never heard of embryology as a field of study.

"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote." Pernaud & Moore Pg.2 (common textbook in Embryology courses)

"... [W]e begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual." Larsen Pg 1 (Human Embryology Textbook)

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed” O'Rahilly, R. and F. Muller. 1996. Human Embryology & Teratology, Wiley-Liss, New York.

"Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25." Moore and Persaud, p. 2;

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoa and the resulting mingling of the chromosomal material each brings to the union that culminates the process of fertilization and initiates the life of a new individual. Every one of the higher animals starts life as a single cell the fertilized ovum. The union of two such sex cells to form a zygote constitutes the process of fertilization and initiates the life of a new individual." Bradley M. Patten, M.D. Foundations of Embryology (3rd Edition, 1968), New York City: McGraw-Hill.

"The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation, and fertilization ... The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life". J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 17 and 23.

"The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual." Leslie Arey. Developmental Anatomy (7th Edition, 1974). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers.

"Zygote. This cell results from fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm and is the beginning of a human being ... Development begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte to form a zygote. Each of us started life as a cell called a zygote." K.L. Moore. The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (2nd Ed., 1977). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 1 and 12.

"Based on my education and background, therefore, I believe that from the moment of the union of the sperm and the egg in the human species, there is present a new living human being. The human life is there from the moment of fertilization, and its very essence starts early but is not completed until the second decade of life. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood, and that interruption at any point constitutes termination of human life." Alfred M. Bongiovanni, M.D., University of Pennsylvania Medical Professor, before the Senate Judiciary Committee, April 24, 1981.

"A human being develops from a mass of living material no larger than a pinhead, material contributed by both parents and capable of living and growing for a lifetime ... This genetic makeup was established at the beginning of your life, when a haploid egg and a haploid sperm combined to produce a diploid zygote, your first somatic cell." J.H. Otto and A. Towle. Modern Biology. New York City: Holt, Rinehart & Winston. 1969.

"It is widely accepted and widely taught that human beings as well as other organisms reproducing by sexual reproduction this is nothing unique to humans; this is a general biological principle start their existence at the time of conception or fertilization, as a single cell, the zygote." Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, M.D., Harvard Medical School, quoted in the Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session, April 23, 1981.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition." E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant. 3rd Edition. Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii.


LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: when does human life have value AND how is that value determined?

I believe that to be the true issue of abortion, not the issue of life itself, but that value of that life (both when, and how much). However, we cannot forget that the mother must also be granted value as well, since women are not mere "baby makers", but unique individuals with their own rights and their own value.

But you don't answer the question posed?

[steen]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Pernaud & Moore Pg.2 (common textbook in Embryology courses) Which edition? What year is this?

Quote: Larsen Pg 1 (Human Embryology Textbook) Which edition? What year is this?

Quote: "Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed” O'Rahilly, R. and F. Muller. 1996. Human Embryology & Teratology, Wiley-Liss, New York. And so? How does that prove your claim?

Quote: "Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25." Moore and Persaud, p. 2; Which edition? What year is this? And this also shows no evidence of your claim.

Quote: Bradley M. Patten, M.D. Foundations of Embryology (3rd Edition, 1968), New York City: McGraw-Hill. Vastly outdated.

Quote: J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 17 and 23. Which edition? What year is this?

Quote: Leslie Arey. Developmental Anatomy (7th Edition, 1974). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Vastly outdated.

Quote: K.L. Moore. The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (2nd Ed., 1977). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 1 and 12. Vastly outdated. Using old sources like that doesn't prove nothing about now. It only showed what some text book authors thought 30-50 years ago. And BTW, text books are not peer-reviewed. So these snippets are only evidence of the vocabulary used in general intro textbooks back then. It shows nothing about scientific consensus. It shows nothing about what the authors views are specifically to the question posed. All you are doing is quote-mining outdated textbooks.

Quote: Alfred M. Bongiovanni, M.D., University of Pennsylvania Medical Professor, before the Senate Judiciary Committee, April 24, 1981. Ah, a pro-lifer talking politics. How not relevant to professional, scientific views.

Quote: J.H. Otto and A. Towle. Modern Biology. New York City: Holt, Rinehart & Winston. 1969. Vastly outdated.

Quote: Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, M.D., Harvard Medical School, quoted in the Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session, April 23, 1981. More political sophistry.

Quote: E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant. 3rd Edition. Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii. Vastly outdated.

[Gilbert1908]

steen wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Pernaud & Moore Pg.2 (common textbook in Embryology courses) Which edition? What year is this?

Quote: Larsen Pg 1 (Human Embryology Textbook) Which edition? What year is this?

Quote: "Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed” O'Rahilly, R. and F. Muller. 1996. Human Embryology & Teratology, Wiley-Liss, New York. And so? How does that prove your claim?

Quote: "Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25." Moore and Persaud, p. 2; Which edition? What year is this? And this also shows no evidence of your claim.

Quote: Bradley M. Patten, M.D. Foundations of Embryology (3rd Edition, 1968), New York City: McGraw-Hill. Vastly outdated.

Quote: J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 17 and 23. Which edition? What year is this?

Quote: Leslie Arey. Developmental Anatomy (7th Edition, 1974). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Vastly outdated.

Quote: K.L. Moore. The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (2nd Ed., 1977). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 1 and 12. Vastly outdated. Using old sources like that doesn't prove nothing about now. It only showed what some text book authors thought 30-50 years ago. And BTW, text books are not peer-reviewed. So these snippets are only evidence of the vocabulary used in general intro textbooks back then. It shows nothing about scientific consensus. It shows nothing about what the authors views are specifically to the question posed. All you are doing is quote-mining outdated textbooks.

Quote: Alfred M. Bongiovanni, M.D., University of Pennsylvania Medical Professor, before the Senate Judiciary Committee, April 24, 1981. Ah, a pro-lifer talking politics. How not relevant to professional, scientific views.

Quote: J.H. Otto and A. Towle. Modern Biology. New York City: Holt, Rinehart & Winston. 1969. Vastly outdated.

Quote: Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, M.D., Harvard Medical School, quoted in the Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session, April 23, 1981. More political sophistry.

Quote: E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant. 3rd Edition. Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii. Vastly outdated.

I ask again for any opposing science by ANY medical text book that human life does not begin at conception.

Just one.

One.

But you won't offer any, you will just continue your empty denials and nitwit name calling.

[LostSoul3412]

Gilbert1908 wrote: I ask again for any opposing science by ANY medical text book that human life does not begin at conception.

Just one.

One.

But you won't offer any, you will just continue your empty denials and nitwit name calling.

Embryo: The organism in the early stages of growth and differentiation from fertilization to, in humans, the beginning of the third month of pregnancy. After that point in time, it is termed a fetus.

(www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3225)

The embryo is refered to as an organism, not a human, or life.

Fetus: The unborn offspring from the end of the 8th week after conception (when the major structures have formed) until birth. Up until the eighth week, the developing offspring is called an embryo.

The fetus is refered to as an unborn offspring, and the term "life" or "human" are absent form the definitions.

(www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424)

[LostSoul3412]

Gilbert1908 wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: The folks who study the subject, that is embryologists, are quite clear that human life begins at conception.

I have debated with you many times, Gilbet1908, and I do not doubt you have evidence for your claims, but if you could please provide them, I would greatly appreciate it so that I can better understand what embryologists claim. Mostly for my own curiosity, pardon my ignorance, but I have never heard of embryology as a field of study.

"Zygote: This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). The expression fertilized ovum refers to a secondary oocyte that is impregnated by a sperm; when fertilization is complete, the oocyte becomes a zygote." Pernaud & Moore Pg.2 (common textbook in Embryology courses)

"... [W]e begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual." Larsen Pg 1 (Human Embryology Textbook)

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed" O'Rahilly, R. and F. Muller. 1996. Human Embryology & Teratology, Wiley-Liss, New York.

"Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25." Moore and Persaud, p. 2;

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoa and the resulting mingling of the chromosomal material each brings to the union that culminates the process of fertilization and initiates the life of a new individual. Every one of the higher animals starts life as a single cell the fertilized ovum. The union of two such sex cells to form a zygote constitutes the process of fertilization and initiates the life of a new individual." Bradley M. Patten, M.D. Foundations of Embryology (3rd Edition, 1968), New York City: McGraw-Hill.

"The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation, and fertilization ... The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life". J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 17 and 23.

"The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual." Leslie Arey. Developmental Anatomy (7th Edition, 1974). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers.

"Zygote. This cell results from fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm and is the beginning of a human being ... Development begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte to form a zygote. Each of us started life as a cell called a zygote." K.L. Moore. The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (2nd Ed., 1977). Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. Pages 1 and 12.

"Based on my education and background, therefore, I believe that from the moment of the union of the sperm and the egg in the human species, there is present a new living human being. The human life is there from the moment of fertilization, and its very essence starts early but is not completed until the second decade of life. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood, and that interruption at any point constitutes termination of human life." Alfred M. Bongiovanni, M.D., University of Pennsylvania Medical Professor, before the Senate Judiciary Committee, April 24, 1981.

"A human being develops from a mass of living material no larger than a pinhead, material contributed by both parents and capable of living and growing for a lifetime ... This genetic makeup was established at the beginning of your life, when a haploid egg and a haploid sperm combined to produce a diploid zygote, your first somatic cell." J.H. Otto and A. Towle. Modern Biology. New York City: Holt, Rinehart & Winston. 1969.

"It is widely accepted and widely taught that human beings as well as other organisms reproducing by sexual reproduction this is nothing unique to humans; this is a general biological principle start their existence at the time of conception or fertilization, as a single cell, the zygote." Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, M.D., Harvard Medical School, quoted in the Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session, April 23, 1981.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition." E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant. 3rd Edition. Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii.

More than I bargained for, I suppose. Regardless, thank you for the information.

Gilbert1908 wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: when does human life have value AND how is that value determined?

I believe that to be the true issue of abortion, not the issue of life itself, but that value of that life (both when, and how much). However, we cannot forget that the mother must also be granted value as well, since women are not mere "baby makers", but unique individuals with their own rights and their own value.

But you don't answer the question posed?

That value is dependent on the individual you ask. While the mother may take great interest in her own child, another may not care at all. Value is not dependent on the thing being valued, but rather on the person assigning the value. I cannot answer your questions, because there is no answer to your questions.

[Gilbert1908]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: I ask again for any opposing science by ANY medical text book that human life does not begin at conception.

Just one.

One.

But you won't offer any, you will just continue your empty denials and nitwit name calling.

Embryo: The organism in the early stages of growth and differentiation from fertilization to, in humans, the beginning of the third month of pregnancy. After that point in time, it is termed a fetus.

Organism- a living thing that has (or can develop) the ability to act or function independently

a system considered analogous in structure or function to a living body; "the social organism"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&pwst=1&defl=en&q=define:organism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

LostSoul3412 wrote: (www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3225)

The embryo is refered to as an organism, not a human, or life.

Fetus: The unborn offspring from the end of the 8th week after conception (when the major structures have formed) until birth. Up until the eighth week, the developing offspring is called an embryo.

The fetus is refered to as an unborn offspring, and the term "life" or "human" are absent form the definitions.

(www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424)

offspring-In biology, offspring are the product of reproduction, a new organism produced by one or more parents

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=define%3Aoffspring

offspring-a person's child or an animal's young, or sometimes a descendant of a plant

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861684591

[LostSoul3412]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Organism- a living thing that has (or can develop) the ability to act or function independently

a system considered analogous in structure or function to a living body; "the social organism"

What is life without the ability to function independently?

Gilbert1908 wrote: offspring-In biology, offspring are the product of reproduction, a new organism produced by one or more parents

Organism, not life.

Gilbert1908 wrote: offspring-a person's child or an animal's young, or sometimes a descendant of a plant

I am an offspring of my parents, but I am already born. That definition is not within the context of birth.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: What is life without the ability to function independently?
An embryo functions independently from the mother. It is a seperate human organism self dictating its growth inside the mother. The mother is not conciously feeding the organism, it is progressing on its own.

Quote: Organism, not life.
All organsims including you and me, are alive.

Quote: That definition is not within the context of birth. Seeing as how life begins at conception, you could label an unborn child just that, a child.

[steen]

Gilbert1908 wrote: I ask again for any opposing science by ANY medical text book that human life does not begin at conception.

Just one.

One.

But you won't offer any, you will just continue your empty denials and nitwit name calling. Rather, science does not identify ione unique moment. here are xamples of articles in peer-reviewed sources dealing with that issue:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9609026&query_hl=33&itool=pubmed_docsum
...The question about the identification of the exact moment when human life begins has a special ethic transcendence. Elements afforded by science are insufficient for this objective,...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7361883&query_hl=33&itool=pubmed_DocSum
...Causation theory is applied to the question of the point at which human life begins. It is concluded that the potential human being becomes actualized through the cessation of an exclusive in-utero dependency upon the material, formal, and efficient causes of its being, and the beginning of a nonexclusive ex-utero dependency upon nurturing and care-giving sources....

[steen]

Gilbert1908 wrote: offspring-In biology, offspring are the product of reproduction, a new organism produced by one or more parents

offspring-a person's child or an animal's young, or sometimes a descendant of a plant So until they have sprung off, they are not offspring. So the embryo and fetus are not offspring.

Any other sophistry and revisionist linguistics yuo would like to try for?

[steen]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: What is life without the ability to function independently?
An embryo functions independently from the mother. Ignorant nonsense. Without the umbilical cord, it would rapidly cease to "function" at all.

Quote: It is a seperate human organism Nope.

Quote: self dictating its growth inside the mother. A blatant falsehood.

Quote: The mother is not conciously feeding the organism, it is progressing on its own. It is not consciously feeding itself either, showing how silly and irrelevanbt your argument is.

[Politics Mstr]

I say we make it illegal. If it becomes a "back of the alley thing", so be it. With today's technologies, abortion should be an immoral, much avoided last resort. There will always be people doing illegal things in society, we can't stop it. I guess the pro-choice members live by the unreasonable phrase "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

[steen]

Politics Mstr wrote: I say we make it illegal. If it becomes a "back of the alley thing", so be it. Why am I not surprised.

Quote: With today's technologies, abortion should be an immoral, much avoided last resort. Nope.

Quote: There will always be people doing illegal things in society, we can't stop it. I guess the pro-choice members live by the unreasonable phrase "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Nope.