Political Crossfire Forums

[wormwood]

I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?

[PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd]

there is know diference, god is suposed to be all three, the father(god) the son(jesus) and the holy spirit

[wormwood]

Quote: there is know diference, god is suposed to be all three, the father(god) the son(jesus) and the holy spirit Why call Him 3 different names then? There is obviously some form of differentiation to justify why people believe in this trinity right?

[guantanamo on toast]

wormwood wrote: Quote: there is know diference, god is suposed to be all three, the father(god) the son(jesus) and the holy spirit Why call Him 3 different names then? There is obviously some form of differentiation to justify why people believe in this trinity right?
So that trying to deny their existance is three times as much work. :)

[John]

wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?

What is the difference between the Shekinah glory and God?

[Gilbert1908]

wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?

For those of us who need some logic applied to such mystery here is my favorite explaination of the Blessed Trinity by Aquinas

"As above explained (13, 1,2), divine things are named by our intellect, not as they really are in themselves, for in that way it knows them not; but in a way that belongs to things created. And as in the objects of the senses, whence the intellect derives its knowledge, the nature of the species is made individual by the matter, and thus the nature is as the form, and the individual is the "suppositum" of the form; so also in God the essence is taken as the form of the three persons, according to our mode of signification. Now in creatures we say that every form belongs to that whereof it is the form; as the health and beauty of a man belongs to the man. But we do not say of that which has a form, that it belongs to the form, unless some adjective qualifies the form; as when we say: "That woman is of a handsome figure," or: "This man is of perfect virtue." In like manner, as in God the persons are multiplied, and the essence is not multiplied, we speak of one essence of the three persons, and three persons of the one essence, provided that these genitives be understood as designating the form." Summa Theologica

[John]

wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?

In all honesty man, the Holy Spirit is the most mysterious concept in the Bible. No one can really say that they really understand it. It's something you experience or feel.

I try not to imagine God as being limited to our three-dimensional world. I believe the Trinity can be seen in the Bible and is there because of the ultra-dimensionality of God.

It's kinda like trying to explain a cube to a two-dimensional square living in a two-dimensional reality. It's not going to get it completely no matter what because the concept defies the reality it lives in and accepts as truth.

[Unknownspectre]

Well there are a handful of passages that actually hint at the Trinity. For example:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That clearly defines 3 seperate people as one.

Genisis 1:26b And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Notice that God said, "Let us make man in our image"

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

If you look at this in a slightly different way, the Lord says that his name is tied in with three people, a bit of a stretch.

Matthew 3:16,17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

There you see reference of Jesus, the Son, the Spirit of God, and then the voice coming from Heaven, which is God

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Another direct reference to there being three beings

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Yet another.


Well there is my two cents.

[Todd D.]

It should be noted that 1 John 5:7 (The Comma Johanneum) is an extremely controversial verse that many people believe was added much much later. It doesn't appear in any Bible before the KJV and was never present in the Vulgate.

That in no way diminishes the validity of the Trinity model, seeing that just about every Christian denomination on the planet holds to some semblance of it, I'm just saying that maybe we shouldn't cite the Comma Johanneum as proof, since it is not universally agreed upon as Canonical.

[Unknownspectre]

You're right. I possibly shouldn't have cited that as a proof. But that's why I scrounged around for all the other verses I quoted. That you for posting about that verse.

[Saf]

wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?
The trinity was made up by man and relies mostly on ambiguous verses from John, which makes sense because he was a dirty platonist. :)

[MJB]

Interestingly, I would have to say that the various Trinitarian creeds tend to do more to contradict the foundational tenet of Christianity, that Jesus Christ is, indeed, the Son of God, than they do to adequately explain or define God, doing more to confuse, than to clarify.

I find the dictionary definition of trinity to be more in keeping with the scriptures when they speak of one God, than such creeds.

Quote: trin·i·ty

A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
trinity

1: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one [syn: three, {3}, III, trio, threesome, tierce, leash, troika, triad, trine, ternary, ternion, triplet, tercet, terzetto, trey, deuce-ace]

2: the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead [syn: Trinity, Holy Trinity, Blessed Trinity, Sacred Trinity] 3: three people considered as a unit [syn: trio, threesome, triad]

trinity

a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of
God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr.
trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas,
first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions
involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but
one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2.
That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona,
suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That
Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and
the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

And, of course, in addition to Matthew 3:16-17, clearly indicating three individual and distinct beings, in three different places at the same time, we have the great intercessory prayer, in which Jesus gives a most beautiful description of what it means to be one:

John 17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

[John]

Saf wrote: wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?
The trinity was made up by man and relies mostly on ambiguous verses from John, which makes sense because he was a dirty platonist. :)

No he wasn't.

[psholtz]

John wrote: Saf wrote: wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?
The trinity was made up by man and relies mostly on ambiguous verses from John, which makes sense because he was a dirty platonist. :)

No he wasn't.
The entire NT is a deeply Platonic document, John..

Christianity is little more than Neo-Platonism dumbed down for the masses..

In the case of St. Paul, the Platonic influence is just blatantly obvious:

http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2004/april/mtpub2.asp

In the cases of Jesus or St. John, it's less *obvious*, but it's still very much there.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: Saf wrote: wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?
The trinity was made up by man and relies mostly on ambiguous verses from John, which makes sense because he was a dirty platonist. :)

No he wasn't.
The entire NT is a deeply Platonic document, John..

Christianity is little more than Neo-Platonism dumbed down for the masses..

In the case of St. Paul, the Platonic influence is just blatantly obvious:

http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2004/april/mtpub2.asp

In the cases of Jesus or St. John, it's less *obvious*, but it's still very much there.

You've got you're wires crossed.

[Snarf]

wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?

An Appeal to Trinitarian Christians
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
Historical Background of the Trinity

By Jeff Rath 11-97

The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, consubstantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshipped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. The idea of "God the Son" is Babylonian paganism and mythology that was grafted into Christianity. Worshipping "God the Son" is idolatry, and idolatry is Biblically condemned; it breaks the first great commandment of God of not having any gods before him (Exodus 20:3). Then three centuries after Christ the corrupt emperor Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity upon the council of Nicea. The Christian church went downward from there; in fact some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God." If you follow the logic here then first you have Jesus Christ as God, then you have man totally depraved, and then you have Jesus Christ as man and God. If Jesus Christ is both man and God does this mean that God is also totally depraved? Well maybe the doctrine of the coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead is deprived of any historical foundation tying it into the Christianity of the Bible and the Christianity of the first three centuries. However the historical information ties the trinity into various pagan origins.
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm

[Omega1]

Verses that debunk the trinity...

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus admits he is not perfectly good and says only "my father".

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Why would he ask himself that question if he is God?

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

How come Jesus doesn't know if the father is him?

[sLiPpY]

John wrote: wormwood wrote: I am sure you guys have answered this one a lot, but can someone please explain the trinity concept and why it is observed even though not spelled out in the text? Why is this such a popular belief? What is the difference between the "father" and the "holy spirit"?

What is the difference between the Shekinah glory and God?

Well John, I've got to say that the above is the most interesting concept I've observed you forward to date. Emphasis on "most," which isn't to say it's the "first." :lol:

How about a little history, and etymology. Shekinah is NOT FOUND in the scripture as a noun, and the concept it describes is also not scriptural. The word was coined by Rabbinic scholars. Loosely, the term can be applied to describe God's presence, well that is if you're a Christian, and ignorant of the etymology of the word. :lol:

So it's a "coined" term from cognates in the Bible which describe the "presence" of God. It's derived from "shakan"

It's also interesting to note, it is a feminine noun. The verb "shakan" simply means to be a long time resident in a neighborhood.

So there we have the etymology, and a sLiPpY just dying to see how a term that is non-biblical, yet in wide distribution among the modern Christian community might be applied. :flwr:

[John]

Quote: Well John, I've got to say that the above is the most interesting concept I've observed you forward to date.

Great....count me as one and you zero...because I'm yet to see you bring forth anything of substance. And I'm not just saying that to razz you...I'm 100% serious. Your comments are rarely even worth commenting on. What funny is how you think you're really on to something and it so basic and so wrong. I dunno why but I really never feel drawn to talk to you like I do some others on here.

But anyways...I don't expect wormwood to be as misinformed as you...and it was specifically directed at him.

[John]

Quote: Verses that debunk the trinity...

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus admits he is not perfectly good and says only "my father".

He does? Where does it say only "my Father"?

You're missing the concept of the text. The person asking the question didn't believe in Jesus. And Jesus was pointing out his ignorance and lack of understanding by pointing out that he was calling Him "good". That why would he call Jesus "good" if he didn't believe what He taught? That He is God.



Open your eyes and stop being blind.

Jesus said:

John 10
11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.