Political Crossfire Forums

[psholtz]

sLiPpY wrote: psholtz wrote: MJB wrote: I like the analogy of three lit matches being held together making one unified flame.
On this note, the analogy I've heard that I like the best is that God is like a Fire (a consuming fire, as per the OT), but this Fire is forever hidden and invisible from the comprehension of man. Instead, man only has the capacity is perceive the (a) heat; (b) light; and (c) smoke which the Fire generates.. hence the Trinity.

:think: yeh, that's what Philo says. :)
Like I said, great minds think alike.. :-D

I actually got that analogy from Jacob Boehme, but it's entirely possible that he got it from Philo. Boehme was a deeply learned philosopher, and I'm sure he was familiar w/ the works of Philo..

[MJB]

Omega1 wrote: MJB wrote: I like the analogy of three lit matches being held together making one unified flame.

That doesn't mean you can simultaneously be 3 people. Do those matches have 3 minds controlled by 1 person?

Each, being an individual, having his own mind, but, even so, figuratively speaking, all three being of one mind and heart.

Or, as modern lingo might describe, all three individuals being on the same page.

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: sLiPpY wrote: psholtz wrote: MJB wrote: I like the analogy of three lit matches being held together making one unified flame.
On this note, the analogy I've heard that I like the best is that God is like a Fire (a consuming fire, as per the OT), but this Fire is forever hidden and invisible from the comprehension of man. Instead, man only has the capacity is perceive the (a) heat; (b) light; and (c) smoke which the Fire generates.. hence the Trinity.

:think: yeh, that's what Philo says. :)
Like I said, great minds think alike.. :-D

I actually got that analogy from Jacob Boehme, but it's entirely possible that he got it from Philo. Boehme was a deeply learned philosopher, and I'm sure he was familiar w/ the works of Philo..

How does that analogy fit in with the belief that Y'shua was not YHWH incarnate, and thus not part of the Trinity? Who is the Son?

I think it is a good analogy with The Father as the heat which consumes, the Son as the light which illuminates, and the Holy Spirit as the smoke which pervades the area surrounding the fire.

But if one does not hold Y'shua as anything more than a mere mortal what good is the analogy?

There is no third aspect.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: How does that analogy fit in with the belief that Y'shua was not YHWH incarnate, and thus not part of the Trinity? Who is the Son?
The Son is the Christ..

Quote: I think it is a good analogy with The Father as the heat which consumes, the Son as the light which illuminates, and the Holy Spirit as the smoke which pervades the area surrounding the fire.
This is probably a very good analogy..

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The Son is the Christ..


Is Y'shua the Christ?

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The Son is the Christ..


Is Y'shua the Christ?
No, Yeshua was a man who manifested the Christ, and who moreover showed you how to do the same (see John 14:12) by following his example and obeying the same Divine Law that he obeyed.

[John]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The Son is the Christ..


Is Y'shua the Christ?
No, Yeshua was a man who manifested the Christ, and who moreover showed you how to do the same (see John 14:12) by following his example and obeying the same Divine Law that he obeyed.

St.John had something else to say about this issue...

1 John 2
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.



I don't think it can get any clearer than that.

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The Son is the Christ..


Is Y'shua the Christ?
No, Yeshua was a man who manifested the Christ, and who moreover showed you how to do the same (see John 14:12) by following his example and obeying the same Divine Law that he obeyed.

St.John had something else to say about this issue...

1 John 2
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.



I don't think it can get any clearer than that.
It would be more accurate to say that Jesus manifested the Christ.

The Christ is not a walking/talking/breathing human being .. this is impossible b/c the Christ is immortal and human bodies are not. Even you must admit that the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now dead and gone and gone back to the dust from whence it came.

[MJB]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The Son is the Christ..


Is Y'shua the Christ?
No, Yeshua was a man who manifested the Christ, and who moreover showed you how to do the same (see John 14:12) by following his example and obeying the same Divine Law that he obeyed.

St.John had something else to say about this issue...

1 John 2
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.



I don't think it can get any clearer than that.
It would be more accurate to say that Jesus manifested the Christ.

The Christ is not a walking/talking/breathing human being .. this is impossible b/c the Christ is immortal and human bodies are not. Even you must admit that the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now dead and gone and gone back to the dust from whence it came.

Luke 24: 39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The Son is the Christ..


Is Y'shua the Christ?
No, Yeshua was a man who manifested the Christ, and who moreover showed you how to do the same (see John 14:12) by following his example and obeying the same Divine Law that he obeyed.

St.John had something else to say about this issue...

1 John 2
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.



I don't think it can get any clearer than that.
It would be more accurate to say that Jesus manifested the Christ.

The Christ is not a walking/talking/breathing human being .. this is impossible b/c the Christ is immortal and human bodies are not. Even you must admit that the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now dead and gone and gone back to the dust from whence it came.

No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.

John 20
26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

[psholtz]

MJB wrote: Luke 24: 39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Yes, my point exactly.

Jesus was not a ghost, and he had flesh and bones.

[psholtz]

John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.


Wrong.


Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.


Wrong.


Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
You've been waiting for what is it ... 2,000 years for this to happen? :lol:

Keep waiting, my friend... be my guest.

My only request is that you kindly wait in silence, and let the rest of us go on w/ our lives.. :-D

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.


Wrong.


Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
On a more serious note, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. This is a very basic, very orthodox teaching of the Christian Church. If what these apostles saw ascending into Heaven was truly that which had inherited the Kingdom of Heaven, then we know for a fact that what they saw was not made of flesh and blood..

Understand?

[MJB]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.

And the scriptures tell this, where?

A resurrected body is immortal, and cannot die.

But I am curious to know how one comes to the conclusion that Jesus' resurrected body was just a temporary occurrence, and that his resurrected body died also.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.


Wrong.


Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
On a more serious note, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. This is a very basic, very orthodox teaching of the Christian Church. If what these apostles saw ascending into Heaven was truly that which had inherited the Kingdom of Heaven, then we know for a fact that what they saw was not made of flesh and blood..

Understand?

Let us reason...shall we?

[psholtz]

MJB wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.

And the scriptures tell this, where?

A resurrected body is immortal, and cannot die.
Everything material must die.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

The resurrected body has reference to your Soul, not your body.

If you identify your body w/ your Soul (or mistake your body as being your Soul), you are -- for all intents and purposes -- already lost and there is precious little that can be done for your welfare.

Quote: But I am curious to know how one comes to the conclusion that Jesus' resurrected body was just a temporary occurrence, and that his resurrected body died also.
Everything in the material sphere is temporary... everything in the material sphere dies.

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.


Wrong.


Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
On a more serious note, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. This is a very basic, very orthodox teaching of the Christian Church. If what these apostles saw ascending into Heaven was truly that which had inherited the Kingdom of Heaven, then we know for a fact that what they saw was not made of flesh and blood..

Understand?

Let us reason...shall we?
The crux of this person's arguments rest upon the idea that only flesh and blood can "die", and that nothing "spiritual" can ever die (more especially, he seems to suggest that the Soul can never "die").

This is, of course, completely untrue.

It is written in your Scriptures (Ezekiel) that "the Soul that sinneth, it shall die", and again in the NT, "What profiteth it a man, that he gain the world but lose his Soul?" The Soul can be lost, and it can (quite easily) die. The Resurrection w/ which Jesus is concerned is the Resurrection of the Soul, not the body.. (something, which, btw, is the a very Platonic concept).

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: No. Jesus has a resurrected glorified body...a physical body. The tomb was EMPTY. No, the body inhabited by Jesus when he walked the Earth is now very much ALIVE.
Jesus *had* a resurrected body... just to prove that it's possible to resurrect a body if God so wills it.

Even Jesus' resurrected body, though, is long since dead.


Wrong.


Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
On a more serious note, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. This is a very basic, very orthodox teaching of the Christian Church. If what these apostles saw ascending into Heaven was truly that which had inherited the Kingdom of Heaven, then we know for a fact that what they saw was not made of flesh and blood..

Understand?

Let us reason...shall we?
The crux of this person's arguments rest upon the idea that only flesh and blood can "die", and that nothing "spiritual" can ever die (more especially, he seems to suggest that the Soul can never "die").

This is, of course, completely untrue.

It is written in your Scriptures (Ezekiel) that "the Soul that sinneth, it shall die", and again in the NT, "What profiteth it a man, that he gain the world but lose his Soul?" The Soul can be lost, and it can (quite easily) die. The Resurrection w/ which Jesus is concerned is the Resurrection of the Soul, not the body.. (something, which, btw, is the a very Platonic concept).
The Resurrection is a core belief in both Christianity and Judaism. You can choose to reject this if you like....it matters not. You'll be resurrected either way....everyone will....where you go from there is what you seem to confuse with death and life.

I don't expect you to get that...but there it is none the less.