Political Crossfire Forums

[Lumina]

Omega1 wrote: PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: Some people may argue that it sets a stronger example, but in my opinion every person is truly their own and should not be punished for the actions of another.

Here's what Bible God thinks...

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

As you can see, He punishes you too (even though you weren’t born) .

Gen.9:21-25
"And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father .... And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham's son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Ex.20:5 , Dt.5:9
"I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Ex.34:7
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Num.14:18
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Dt.23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

Dt.28:18
"Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body."

2 Sam.12:14
"The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

2 Sam.21:6-9
Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD .... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD."

1 Kg.2:33
"Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever."

1 Kg.11:11-12
"Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son."

1 Kg.21:29
"Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house."

2 Kg.5:27
"The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever."

Is.14:21
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

Jer.16:10-11
"Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? ... Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord."

Jer.29:32
"Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed."

Jer.32:18
"Thou ... recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them."

:shock:

I think that the passage to which you refer are describing the consequences of original sin.

When I was younger, I also pondered over these passages. A few years ago, however, I suddenly realized--with shock and horror, I assure you--that however unwittingly and despite sincere effort, in the course of my life I had managed to break all ten Commandments.

One way or another, I have despite nearly an entire life truly trying not to, and I am horrified and heartbroken. I surely didn't intend to, and I definitely made strong efforts to not repeat my parents' mistakes.

Now, however, I have a 23-year old and a 21-year old and understand, with anguish, what the "sins of the fathers" are all about and why they are passed down from generation to generation.

Perhaps it will help you to substitute other terms--neurosis, weakness, failure, pride, anger, sloth, envy, avarice, glottony, and sloth--for the word "sins."

Just my opinion.

[mattwa33193]

Lumina wrote: Omega1 wrote: PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: Some people may argue that it sets a stronger example, but in my opinion every person is truly their own and should not be punished for the actions of another.

Here's what Bible God thinks...

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

As you can see, He punishes you too (even though you weren’t born) .

Gen.9:21-25
"And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father .... And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham's son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Ex.20:5 , Dt.5:9
"I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Ex.34:7
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Num.14:18
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Dt.23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

Dt.28:18
"Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body."

2 Sam.12:14
"The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

2 Sam.21:6-9
Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD .... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD."

1 Kg.2:33
"Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever."

1 Kg.11:11-12
"Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son."

1 Kg.21:29
"Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house."

2 Kg.5:27
"The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever."

Is.14:21
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

Jer.16:10-11
"Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? ... Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord."

Jer.29:32
"Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed."

Jer.32:18
"Thou ... recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them."

:shock:

I think that the passage to which you refer are describing the consequences of original sin.

When I was younger, I also pondered over these passages. A few years ago, however, I suddenly realized--with shock and horror, I assure you--that however unwittingly and despite sincere effort, in the course of my life I had managed to break all ten Commandments.

One way or another, I have despite nearly an entire life truly trying not to, and I am horrified and heartbroken. I surely didn't intend to, and I definitely made strong efforts to not repeat my parents' mistakes.

Now, however, I have a 23-year old and a 21-year old and understand, with anguish, what the "sins of the fathers" are all about and why they are passed down from generation to generation.

Perhaps it will help you to substitute other terms--neurosis, weakness, failure, pride, anger, sloth, envy, avarice, glottony, and sloth--for the word "sins."

Just my opinion.

You killed sombody? And honored false gods?

[garyd]

The sins of the father are visited upon the Children because we human beings can't help ourselves.

Daddy has a problem with anger junior better learn early what tics daddy off or the consequences of that particular sin will be visited upon him with apalling frequency.

The children of alchoholics are far more likely to experience problems with addictive behavior than are children whose parents were not alcoholics.

That's just the way it is.

[toddytodd]

Omega1 wrote: Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions? For example, someone murders someone and you want to punish their son also even though he had nothing to do with it?
Absolutely not.

[garyd]

God doesn't do that human nature does that.

[toddytodd]

garyd wrote: God doesn't do that human nature does that.

Then explain the obvious "genetic link" to sin passed down to all mankind from Adam & Eve. If God doesn't blame the son for the father's actions, then inborn sin (which technically should not exists if what you say is true) should have stopped after Adam & Eve. Everyone born after Adam/Eve should be born of no sin then?

[garyd]

The sin in the garden made us all inherently selfish not only that it made selfishness a survival characteristic of a sort. And as we were being cast out of the protected garden we were going to need all the survival tools we could get.

[toddytodd]

garyd wrote: The sin in the garden made us all inherently selfish not only that it made selfishness a survival characteristic of a sort. And as we were being cast out of the protected garden we were going to need all the survival tools we could get.

I apologize - sometimes I do not understand what you are meaning to say. This is what I gathered from your response - I am sure you will correct me if needed:
1) God put us (Adam & Eve) in a situation that where he knew they would fall and we are being held responsible for that fall? That seems like a 'stacked deck' to me.
2) God is making me responsible for the actions of a man and a women thousand of years ago that I had no control over?
3) To help compensate for getting kicked out, we use selfishness as a survival tool? If so, how?

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: garyd wrote: The sin in the garden made us all inherently selfish not only that it made selfishness a survival characteristic of a sort. And as we were being cast out of the protected garden we were going to need all the survival tools we could get.

I apologize - sometimes I do not understand what you are meaning to say. This is what I gathered from your response - I am sure you will correct me if needed:
1) God put us (Adam & Eve) in a situation that where he knew they would fall and we are being held responsible for that fall? That seems like a 'stacked deck' to me.
2) God is making me responsible for the actions of a man and a women thousand of years ago that I had no control over?
3) To help compensate for getting kicked out, we use selfishness as a survival tool? If so, how?

But you ignore the fact that Christ provides your salvation.

Free will is the KEY to all of Christianity. Free will caused original sin, free will at the Annunciation, free will at the sacrifice of the Cross and You are in control of your own destiny, Christ provided you with The Way. Take it or reject it, you have free will too.

[MJB]

toddytodd wrote: garyd wrote: God doesn't do that human nature does that.

Then explain the obvious "genetic link" to sin passed down to all mankind from Adam & Eve. If God doesn't blame the son for the father's actions, then inborn sin (which technically should not exists if what you say is true) should have stopped after Adam & Eve. Everyone born after Adam/Eve should be born of no sin then?

The genetic link that was passed down was mortality, not sin, unless one subscribes to the notion that infants and little children are sinful creatures as well.

It is living in an imperfect mortal state, in a fallen world, away from the presence of God, and suffering the buffetings of Satan, that result in our succumbing to sin, which we all do if we live long enough.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: garyd wrote: The sin in the garden made us all inherently selfish not only that it made selfishness a survival characteristic of a sort. And as we were being cast out of the protected garden we were going to need all the survival tools we could get.

I apologize - sometimes I do not understand what you are meaning to say. This is what I gathered from your response - I am sure you will correct me if needed:
1) God put us (Adam & Eve) in a situation that where he knew they would fall and we are being held responsible for that fall? That seems like a 'stacked deck' to me.
2) God is making me responsible for the actions of a man and a women thousand of years ago that I had no control over?
3) To help compensate for getting kicked out, we use selfishness as a survival tool? If so, how?


But you ignore the fact that Christ provides your salvation.

Free will is the KEY to all of Christianity. Free will caused original sin, free will at the Annunciation, free will at the sacrifice of the Cross and You are in control of your own destiny, Christ provided you with The Way. Take it or reject it, you have free will too.

I understand the concept you refer to (free will). And while I can somewhat accept that free will concept (somewhat), it still doesn't make sense to me. However, I do subscribe to the fact that God doesn't have to make sense to me or anyone else. So this is just one of many issues I try to deal with on a daily basis.

[toddytodd]

MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: garyd wrote: God doesn't do that human nature does that.

Then explain the obvious "genetic link" to sin passed down to all mankind from Adam & Eve. If God doesn't blame the son for the father's actions, then inborn sin (which technically should not exists if what you say is true) should have stopped after Adam & Eve. Everyone born after Adam/Eve should be born of no sin then?

The genetic link that was passed down was mortality, not sin, unless one subscribes to the notion that infants and little children are sinful creatures as well.

It is living in an imperfect mortal state, in a fallen world, away from the presence of God, and suffering the buffetings of Satan, that result in our succumbing to sin, which we all do if we live long enough.

If so, morality is a result of sin. Thank you, but I don't appreciate the idea of someone (A &/or E) making that decision for me because of their sin. I have been taught that everyone is born into sin as a rule. You become accountable for sin once you can make the decision to consciously sin. Again, that seems more of a human ideology than a god's ideology.
In my opinion, that was the 'plan' all along: make man, make him sin/fall, then give him free will to make decision to serve me or not. That doesn't seem like total free will to me.

[MJB]

toddytodd wrote: MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: garyd wrote: God doesn't do that human nature does that.

Then explain the obvious "genetic link" to sin passed down to all mankind from Adam & Eve. If God doesn't blame the son for the father's actions, then inborn sin (which technically should not exists if what you say is true) should have stopped after Adam & Eve. Everyone born after Adam/Eve should be born of no sin then?

The genetic link that was passed down was mortality, not sin, unless one subscribes to the notion that infants and little children are sinful creatures as well.

It is living in an imperfect mortal state, in a fallen world, away from the presence of God, and suffering the buffetings of Satan, that result in our succumbing to sin, which we all do if we live long enough.

If so, morality is a result of sin. Thank you, but I don't appreciate the idea of someone (A &/or E) making that decision for me because of their sin. I have been taught that everyone is born into sin as a rule. You become accountable for sin once you can make the decision to consciously sin. Again, that seems more of a human ideology than a god's ideology.
In my opinion, that was the 'plan' all along: make man, make him sin/fall, then give him free will to make decision to serve me or not. That doesn't seem like total free will to me.

Would we rather not be here? Mortality was the result of their transgression, yes. But they had a choice to make. Enjoy the pleasant and perfect existence the garden afforded, in their innocent state, with everything staying the same, or partake of the fruit, gain a knowledge of good and evil, bring mortality into the world, and subject themselves to experience the joys and sorrows, with both the positive and negative aspects, of mortality, including multiplying and replenishing the earth. As far as I'm concerned they made the right choice, which choice, as I see it, being part of God's plan all along.

[toddytodd]

MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: garyd wrote: God doesn't do that human nature does that.

Then explain the obvious "genetic link" to sin passed down to all mankind from Adam & Eve. If God doesn't blame the son for the father's actions, then inborn sin (which technically should not exists if what you say is true) should have stopped after Adam & Eve. Everyone born after Adam/Eve should be born of no sin then?

The genetic link that was passed down was mortality, not sin, unless one subscribes to the notion that infants and little children are sinful creatures as well.

It is living in an imperfect mortal state, in a fallen world, away from the presence of God, and suffering the buffetings of Satan, that result in our succumbing to sin, which we all do if we live long enough.

If so, morality is a result of sin. Thank you, but I don't appreciate the idea of someone (A &/or E) making that decision for me because of their sin. I have been taught that everyone is born into sin as a rule. You become accountable for sin once you can make the decision to consciously sin. Again, that seems more of a human ideology than a god's ideology.
In my opinion, that was the 'plan' all along: make man, make him sin/fall, then give him free will to make decision to serve me or not. That doesn't seem like total free will to me.

Would we rather not be here? Mortality was the result of their transgression, yes. But they had a choice to make. Enjoy the pleasant and perfect existence the garden afforded, in their innocent state, with everything staying the same, or partake of the fruit, gain a knowledge of good and evil, bring mortality into the world, and subject themselves to experience the joys and sorrows, with both the positive and negative aspects, of mortality, including multiplying and replenishing the earth. As far as I'm concerned they made the right choice, which choice, as I see it, being part of God's plan all along.

I appreciate your comment. For me, I would have rather been in a perfect environment w/o the hardships of trials, temptations, failings, etc. But that's just me

[MJB]

toddytodd wrote: MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: garyd wrote: God doesn't do that human nature does that.

Then explain the obvious "genetic link" to sin passed down to all mankind from Adam & Eve. If God doesn't blame the son for the father's actions, then inborn sin (which technically should not exists if what you say is true) should have stopped after Adam & Eve. Everyone born after Adam/Eve should be born of no sin then?

The genetic link that was passed down was mortality, not sin, unless one subscribes to the notion that infants and little children are sinful creatures as well.

It is living in an imperfect mortal state, in a fallen world, away from the presence of God, and suffering the buffetings of Satan, that result in our succumbing to sin, which we all do if we live long enough.

If so, morality is a result of sin. Thank you, but I don't appreciate the idea of someone (A &/or E) making that decision for me because of their sin. I have been taught that everyone is born into sin as a rule. You become accountable for sin once you can make the decision to consciously sin. Again, that seems more of a human ideology than a god's ideology.
In my opinion, that was the 'plan' all along: make man, make him sin/fall, then give him free will to make decision to serve me or not. That doesn't seem like total free will to me.

Would we rather not be here? Mortality was the result of their transgression, yes. But they had a choice to make. Enjoy the pleasant and perfect existence the garden afforded, in their innocent state, with everything staying the same, or partake of the fruit, gain a knowledge of good and evil, bring mortality into the world, and subject themselves to experience the joys and sorrows, with both the positive and negative aspects, of mortality, including multiplying and replenishing the earth. As far as I'm concerned they made the right choice, which choice, as I see it, being part of God's plan all along.

I appreciate your comment. For me, I would have rather been in a perfect environment w/o the hardships of trials, temptations, failings, etc. But that's just me

I appreciate the sentiment, and that's probably one of many good reasons God created Adam first, and not me. But without Adam and Eve making the choice they did, they'd still be wandering around the garden in ignorant bliss, and we wouldn't be here. :wink:

[toddytodd]

MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: MJB wrote: toddytodd wrote: garyd wrote: God doesn't do that human nature does that.

Then explain the obvious "genetic link" to sin passed down to all mankind from Adam & Eve. If God doesn't blame the son for the father's actions, then inborn sin (which technically should not exists if what you say is true) should have stopped after Adam & Eve. Everyone born after Adam/Eve should be born of no sin then?

The genetic link that was passed down was mortality, not sin, unless one subscribes to the notion that infants and little children are sinful creatures as well.

It is living in an imperfect mortal state, in a fallen world, away from the presence of God, and suffering the buffetings of Satan, that result in our succumbing to sin, which we all do if we live long enough.

If so, morality is a result of sin. Thank you, but I don't appreciate the idea of someone (A &/or E) making that decision for me because of their sin. I have been taught that everyone is born into sin as a rule. You become accountable for sin once you can make the decision to consciously sin. Again, that seems more of a human ideology than a god's ideology.
In my opinion, that was the 'plan' all along: make man, make him sin/fall, then give him free will to make decision to serve me or not. That doesn't seem like total free will to me.

Would we rather not be here? Mortality was the result of their transgression, yes. But they had a choice to make. Enjoy the pleasant and perfect existence the garden afforded, in their innocent state, with everything staying the same, or partake of the fruit, gain a knowledge of good and evil, bring mortality into the world, and subject themselves to experience the joys and sorrows, with both the positive and negative aspects, of mortality, including multiplying and replenishing the earth. As far as I'm concerned they made the right choice, which choice, as I see it, being part of God's plan all along.

I appreciate your comment. For me, I would have rather been in a perfect environment w/o the hardships of trials, temptations, failings, etc. But that's just me

I appreciate the sentiment, and that's probably one of many good reasons God created Adam first, and not me. But without Adam and Eve making the choice they did, they'd still be wandering around the garden in ignorant bliss, and we wouldn't be here. :wink:
Maybe God just decided to 'nip it in the bud' so to speak for everyone all at once
:)
I do understand what you are saying though. But to me, I would prefer the other.

[MJB]

toddytodd wrote:
Maybe God just decided to 'nip it in the bud' so to speak for everyone all at once
:)
I do understand what you are saying though. But to me, I would prefer the other.

At the present moment, I would agree.

Life stuff can be wearing... :-| :sigh1:

[Hawkins]

Omega1 wrote: Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions? For example, someone murders someone and you want to punish their son also even though he had nothing to do with it?

Hehe..are you talking about how God treats the sons of the sinful fathers, or how humans treating the sons of the sinful fathers, or whether humans should play God's role.

You question is quite a mix-up to me. :wink:

[John]

Omega1 wrote: Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions? For example, someone murders someone and you want to punish their son also even though he had nothing to do with it?

Consequence.

You see there are consequences for your actions. If you kill someone and you have a son, expect your son to suffer because of the mistake that you made. When a father is incarcerated, executed, or whatever the punishment of the murderer is....his son will suffer because of the connection with his father. It's just a fact of life that part of the reality of going to prison is that your children will suffer.

The point being; understand that your actions affect other people....especially your children.

[Omega1]

Quote: Consequence. You see there are consequences for your actions. If you kill someone and you have a son, expect your son to suffer because of the mistake that you made. When a father is incarcerated, executed, or whatever the punishment of the murderer is....his son will suffer because of the connection with his father. It's just a fact of life that part of the reality of going to prison is that your children will suffer.

The point being; understand that your actions affect other people....especially your children.

John, I understand that, but I'm not talking about how other people feel after someone committed a sin and neither is the Bible. Otherwise point it out.

I said, "Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions? For example, someone murders someone and you want to punish their son also even though he had nothing to do with it?"

What I'm saying is should we kill the son because of the actions of someone else even though the son had nothing to do with it? God does this so many times in the Bible.

Here's some more verses...

Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Exodus 12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.