Political Crossfire Forums

[Omega1]

Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions? For example, someone murders someone and you want to punish their son also even though he had nothing to do with it?

[PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd]

Some people may argue that it sets a stronger example, but in my opinion every person is truly their own and should not be punished for the actions of another.

[Omega1]

PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: Some people may argue that it sets a stronger example, but in my opinion every person is truly their own and should not be punished for the actions of another.

Here's what Bible God thinks...

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

As you can see, He punishes you too (even though you weren’t born) .

Gen.9:21-25
"And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father .... And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham's son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Ex.20:5 , Dt.5:9
"I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Ex.34:7
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Num.14:18
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Dt.23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

Dt.28:18
"Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body."

2 Sam.12:14
"The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

2 Sam.21:6-9
Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD .... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD."

1 Kg.2:33
"Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever."

1 Kg.11:11-12
"Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son."

1 Kg.21:29
"Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house."

2 Kg.5:27
"The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever."

Is.14:21
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

Jer.16:10-11
"Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? ... Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord."

Jer.29:32
"Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed."

Jer.32:18
"Thou ... recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them."

:shock:

[PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd]

i have had tons of problems with myself when i was trting to become christian, so i can kinda say this i guess, but do u just blindly believe everything the bible says, or do u stop to think what actually makes sense for you? not trying to be for or against anything im just wondering

[SaladFingers]

Your using the Old Testament for some of those passages, Judaism follows the rules layed out in the Old Testament, while Christianity follows the rules layed out by Jesus, and abandons some of the old ones that Jesus struck down.

Good example of this is adultery from the old testament punishable by Stoning. But as we see here, Jesus shows mercy, and abolishes stoning.

http://www.bartleby.com/59/1/lethimwhoisw.html

According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, “No man, lord.” Jesus then said, “Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.”

I struggled with some ideas in both Christianity and science that countered Christianity. What it really comes down to is if you think there is more out there and if you long for it. Usually some terrible event in peoples' lives brings them to this point, seeking answers.

The religion doesn't have to be just Christianity either, but the realization came to me when my grandparents had actually died in a car wreck. Staring at their bodies, you wonder "Is there more? Did they do the things they did in vain, and to just become nothing in the ground, soon to be forgotten in the centuries that pass them by?"

At this point I started to think there is something more to us then just what we do here on earth, rather then.. well just read my signature at the bottom of this post. The next thing I looked for was actual proof that verified parts of the Bible were legitimate. Hence the other signature sentence in my name, in which yes, in contemporary times the Bible did serve a purpose to help.

Simply following blindly isn't much help to the person seeking truth. But I wish ya luck along the way. If you need help trying to verify certain other parts in the bible, just read prophecies and current events surrounding Israel. It gets to be a little eery when you study it and see how whether coincidental or not, how realistic it is.

Considering Jews national status leading up to the formation of Israel, its a miracle therein that they even got their "Zion" or homeland. *shrugs* im probably spoiling certain parts, but when you start to discover stuff like that, it'll make you ponder what relevence/importance your life has, and events that are occuring and will occur in the future.


-Maybe this is the wrong way to go about pursueing the Bible and trying to accept it, but it did work for me, because once you see the giant jigsaw puzzle pieces we call our "World and Timeline" begin to fit together, its rather splendid how everything is, that would make it seem fool hardy to simply beleive one atom hitting into another, created everything.

[vigil]

Salad Fingers:

The quotes that make up your signature are...well, the middle one is interesting, but the other two seem harmful to your cause.

'Logic is deadening to the soul.' I would interpret this to mean that over-analysing something which is meant to be appreciated just for what it is can destroy what was meant to be beautiful in the first place. But in the context of your post, you seem essentially to be saying that people either choose not to think rationally and keep their humanity, or that they sacrifice their humanity in order to be rational. Aside from the fact that such a sentiment is false, you've just used logic and knowledge to explain part of the Bible. We'd be nowhere without logic. Apply the quote in an aesthetic context (as I suspect it was intended) or not at all.

As for the thing about rocks- I don't think there's a single scientist out there who would claim that rocks are alive, let alone that we evolved from them or that people are worth as much as a lump of basalt. We evolved from single-celled organisms which came about on a microscopic level due to environment, pressue and temperature. They did not hatch from rocks. I think you'll be doing a great disservice to the recruitment drive for Christianity if you go around insinuating that all who are scientifically-minded think that the whole of humanity grew out of rocks.

Note:I wouldn't have bothered to mention either of these signature quotes in reference to your post if you hadn't referenced them yourself as helping to prove your argument.

[connermt]

Omega1 wrote: Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions? For example, someone murders someone and you want to punish their son also even though he had nothing to do with it?

IMO, it depends on who did the crime. If a kid (say 10 or 12 yeras old)does something wrong & gets caught, the parent(s) should be punished for lack of discipline/leadership/parenting ability. But, if an adult does something wrong, the adult is responsible for their own actions.

[Duchifas]

Omega1 wrote: Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions?

Have you ever considered that the US Tax Code does that too, on a much grander scale? Perhaps we should abolish it.


[3,2,1, go psholtz.... :) ]

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: Omega1 wrote: Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions?

Have you ever considered that the US Tax Code does that too, on a much grander scale? Perhaps we should abolish it.
Dude, totally!!

I'm am totally w/ you on that one! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote: [3,2,1, go psholtz.... :) ]
:lol:

[Jonah]

Omega1 wrote: PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: Some people may argue that it sets a stronger example, but in my opinion every person is truly their own and should not be punished for the actions of another.

Here's what Bible God thinks...

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

As you can see, He punishes you too (even though you weren’t born) .

Gen.9:21-25
"And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father .... And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan [Ham's son]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Ex.20:5 , Dt.5:9
"I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Ex.34:7
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Num.14:18
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Dt.23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."

Dt.28:18
"Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body."

2 Sam.12:14
"The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

2 Sam.21:6-9
Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD .... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD."

1 Kg.2:33
"Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever."

1 Kg.11:11-12
"Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son."

1 Kg.21:29
"Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house."

2 Kg.5:27
"The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever."

Is.14:21
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

Jer.16:10-11
"Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? ... Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord."

Jer.29:32
"Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed."

Jer.32:18
"Thou ... recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them."

:shock:

Those verses that have "visiting the iniquity upon" have also always troubled me some. I have heard them explained with, "God just allows the natural consequences of sin to take their course." I'm not sure I agree with that, just don't know. Anyhow, here's an interesting chapter:

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.

6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
or lie with a woman during her period.

7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

8 He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest. [a]
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.

10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things [b] 11 (though the father has done none of them):
"He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor's wife.

12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.

13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife.

16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

17 He withholds his hand from sin [c]
and takes no usury or excessive interest.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

In Jeremiah, God states that a "time is coming" when the Israelites will no longer quote that proverb. I believe that time to be now, in this dispensation of God's grace.

[SaladFingers]

vigil wrote: Salad Fingers:

The quotes that make up your signature are...well, the middle one is interesting, but the other two seem harmful to your cause.

'Logic is deadening to the soul.' I would interpret this to mean that over-analysing something which is meant to be appreciated just for what it is can destroy what was meant to be beautiful in the first place. But in the context of your post, you seem essentially to be saying that people either choose not to think rationally and keep their humanity, or that they sacrifice their humanity in order to be rational. Aside from the fact that such a sentiment is false, you've just used logic and knowledge to explain part of the Bible. We'd be nowhere without logic. Apply the quote in an aesthetic context (as I suspect it was intended) or not at all.

As for the thing about rocks- I don't think there's a single scientist out there who would claim that rocks are alive, let alone that we evolved from them or that people are worth as much as a lump of basalt. We evolved from single-celled organisms which came about on a microscopic level due to environment, pressue and temperature. They did not hatch from rocks. I think you'll be doing a great disservice to the recruitment drive for Christianity if you go around insinuating that all who are scientifically-minded think that the whole of humanity grew out of rocks.

Note:I wouldn't have bothered to mention either of these signature quotes in reference to your post if you hadn't referenced them yourself as helping to prove your argument.

The reason why you interpretted the "Logic is deadening of the soul" wrong, is because what we are looking at, is events taking place in the bible, and what value it places on us as humans.

The proverb came from a time when science began to eat away religious establishment in the Qing dynasty, when western scientific influence began to enroach and eat away at religious teachings.

Logic (in the chinese sense) is using higher scientific means of thinking, that in the end, only degrades human value. I'll find my original source from my Philosophy 102 class. It makes more sense when you read it there.

Using knoweledge from the Bible isn't the same as using scientific logic.

As for the rock statement in the my signature, with what you said, I could only conclude you haven't taken Biology, Organic Chemistry, or even Studies in Astronomy, where in all 3 my professors have drawn their conclusions at, or hinted to the conclusion, that for the big bang theory to work, life would come from a rock, or as they said "complex anomoly of atoms" .

There is a forum for evolution, the above paragraph is derived fact from teachings at Iowa State University, there is no real point argueing what those "professors" said. I don't see what you mean by the rock sentence hurting my cause, when read it's asking, are we equal to rocks? or are we something more?

[Omega1]

SaladFingers wrote: Your using the Old Testament for some of those passages, Judaism follows the rules layed out in the Old Testament, while Christianity follows the rules layed out by Jesus, and abandons some of the old ones that Jesus struck down.

So what was the point of the OT? Why did Jesus strike down his own laws?

[vigil]

Salad Fingers:

How does the fact that the Big Bang was a 'complex anomaly of atoms' imply that a disbelief in God equates to thinking that men and rocks and equal? The whole point is that, whatever we started out as, we are now something infinitely more complex. Why does recognition of this have to mean that, on an emotional level (or even a rational one) we cannot make the distinction between *was* and *is*?

[Omega1]

Duchifas wrote: Omega1 wrote: Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions?

Have you ever considered that the US Tax Code does that too, on a much grander scale? Perhaps we should abolish it.
[3,2,1, go psholtz.... :) ]

How the hell is that on a much grander scale? You're just losing money.

God has done it on a MUCH MORE grander scale than that.

[cap'n queasy]

PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: i have had tons of problems with myself when i was trting to become christian, so i can kinda say this i guess, but do u just blindly believe everything the bible says, or do u stop to think what actually makes sense for you? not trying to be for or against anything im just wondering

It's more of a total lack of comprehension that is the problem, more than failure to "blindly believe everything the Bible says". It doesn't do anyone any good to believe something that they believe the Bible says, if it is not what it means.

Take the example put forth of God punishing people because of something that Adam and Eve did.

It's not that simple. They took an action that caused humanity to "know" good and evil. The reaction that caused this knowledge to be known by Adam and Eve was incarnation in a fleshly body. Their children are going to be ever after born into a flesh body because of the fact that Adam and Eve became flesh and can only have fleshly offspring. A person who possesses an imperishable spirit body (like they inhabited before the fall) that has no physical needs or wants cannot possibly experience good and evil or procreate. How could you do something evil to them? You couldn't starve them or steal something they needed because they had absolutely no need of anything physical. You see, they were tricked into wanting something that was not really that desirable to us. The knowledge of good and evil is really worthless to us. We do not like constantly experiencing evil at all, even though the good is ok it is certainly not worth the evil we have to experience, as part of the whole. The only good that can really come out of it is to learn to trust God.

We are not being "punished" because of someone else's actions, we are simply "knowing good and evil". A person can only become aware of this knowledge by possessing a flesh body that has sin. It's sort of like a genetic defect, if you will. You cannot know about good and evil unless you are a physical creature that is sentient.

The trick lies in knowing what is evil and what is good, rather than declaring that what is good must really be evil because you do not want to face what you are, or face God. But this must be faced and dealt with. We have the knowledge of good and evil and therefore are burdened with sin. This sin must be removed to return to our rightful habitation. Only YHWH can do this, and that is the purpose of Y'shua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ), to remove our sin so we can go before the Father, who is holy and will not tolerate our sinful hearts in His presence. We must be washed clean and clothed in clean garments to go before Him.

And I can tell you, every word in the Bible is something you ought to try to understand and therefore believe. It is a part of trusting God. How can He trust us if we do not trust Him?

I hope that helps.

[Gilbert1908]

Omega1 wrote: SaladFingers wrote: Your using the Old Testament for some of those passages, Judaism follows the rules layed out in the Old Testament, while Christianity follows the rules layed out by Jesus, and abandons some of the old ones that Jesus struck down.

So what was the point of the OT? Why did Jesus strike down his own laws?

I'm just wondering if it has dawned on you that virtually every premise you lay out as an example of Christian belief is summarily dismissed by virtually every Christian that reads it.

And I am talking about a VERY diverse group of Christian theologies that is represented within those dismissals, which have some significant disagreements on more than just a few items.

Do you consider that you may just not have an accurate understanding of what it is you are attempting to represent???

[Omega1]

Gilbert1908 wrote: I'm just wondering if it has dawned on you that virtually every premise you lay out as an example of Christian belief is summarily dismissed by virtually every Christian that reads it.

Show me what I have posted that mainstream christianity doesn't believe in.

Why did Jesus strike down his own laws?

How come you're not answering the question?

Quote: It's not that simple. They took an action that caused humanity to "know" good and evil.
Why punish them when they didn't even know good and evil?

Quote: The reaction that caused this knowledge to be known by Adam and Eve was incarnation in a fleshly body. Their children are going to be ever after born into a flesh body because of the fact that Adam and Eve became flesh and can only have fleshly offspring.

God could fix that up. Better yet, he could of put the tree of knowlege out of their reach. It only gets better, he could have made them perfect so they wouldn't sin anymore.

[mattwa33193]

Omega1 wrote: Do anyone of you believe someone should be punished for another person's actions? For example, someone murders someone and you want to punish their son also even though he had nothing to do with it?

Parents should be punished for the acts of their children in some circumstances, but otherwise no.

However....

I would have no problem with killing everyone who ever knew or loved Osama Bin Laden or was ever known or loved by him, for example. Not to punish them, but to punish him. And to discourage others.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: It only gets better, he could have made them perfect so they wouldn't sin anymore.

What do you think the point of Y'shua's teachings are?

Adam and Eve wanted to know the difference between good and evil. Their actions put them in a position to know this. What you are calling punishment some would call teaching us something. Is this world a punishment? Or is it a chance to learn from adversity? Do you think God should have created the world just so we can sit around and have no purpose?

We are to know the difference and we are to choose good.

That means choosing God. Trying to make God out as the "bad guy" in all this is basically a denial that what is good, is good, and that which is evil, is evil.

Bow your heart to God.

[garyd]

Adam and Eve afflicted themselves with a genetic disorder. The curse was that god did not cure it then and there.

That genetic disorder is a predeliction for sin fich is selfishness.