Political Crossfire Forums

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

Gryff1nd0r wrote: feederband wrote:

Assuming you may believe in some sort of higher entity we cannot comprehend..Would you think that this entity has any controll over what happens on this world or just something we will have to deal with in the afterlife if there is one...?

All I can say is that I don't have the faintest idea. It is an interesting thing to wonder about.

I wonder if there is something beyond the universe that somehow set the universe we know in motion... why is there anything in the universe rather than nothing?

In my own thoughts there could be a higher entity in some sort of after life
. Although it just maybe wishful thinking...I just feel if there was a God that created all this we would know him a little more personally not just some story that's been passed on though time...What did set the universe in motion? Had to be something...Was it Big Bang? OK theory but I don't buy it...I think believers and non are both wrong on everything at this point in time..We have some amazing times ahead of us...

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

Gryff1nd0r wrote: I think it is pretty damn reasonable not to believe in any made up Gods, or any Gods we make up in the future.

That is an awsome question though... why are more Gods not invented??? There certainly wasn't a shortage of them throughout history!

And just think of the amazing things Gods did back in the day...What have they done lately? Why don't God just come back as Jesus again...I promise we wont kill him this time...Well that depends on what part of the earth he shows up at...But we will probably just lock him up in some insane asylum...

Gryff1nd0r · Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 2430 Location: Cambridge, MA

feederband wrote:

In my own thoughts there could be a higher entity in some sort of after life
. Although it just maybe wishful thinking...I just feel if there was a God that created all this we would know him a little more personally not just some story that's been passed on though time...What did set the universe in motion? Had to be something...Was it Big Bang? OK theory but I don't buy it...I think believers and non are both wrong on everything at this point in time..We have some amazing times ahead of us...

Even if the big bang did occur, that doesn't explain where that condensed ball of matter came from.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

Gryff1nd0r wrote: feederband wrote:

In my own thoughts there could be a higher entity in some sort of after life
. Although it just maybe wishful thinking...I just feel if there was a God that created all this we would know him a little more personally not just some story that's been passed on though time...What did set the universe in motion? Had to be something...Was it Big Bang? OK theory but I don't buy it...I think believers and non are both wrong on everything at this point in time..We have some amazing times ahead of us...

Even if the big bang did occur, that doesn't explain where that condensed ball of matter came from.

Yeah I really have probs with this theory....But I have yet too come up with a better one...

Iandefor · Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 55

Gryff1nd0r wrote: wormwood wrote: What is reality/reason? I assume you are either referring to science or sense experience, both of which are flawed. Reason tells us that human life is essentially worthless (abundance+ increasing supply=worthless).

"Worth" is a subjective concept, but if that's what reason tells you, then fine. Does that mean that reason is wrong? Not at all. It just means that you would probably rather ignor it. :roll:

Iandefor wrote: Germans used "science" to justify racial discrimination (and worse).

OMG, are you serious? That was NOT science. :lol:

Iandefor wrote: Reason can rationalize killing (abortion) or slavery.

:roll:

Sure reason can rationalize abortion, because a fetus isn't a person. That is a lot different than rationalizing killing in the form of, say, flying a plane into the twin towers.

Slavery, while one can "reason" why it would be selfishly useful in a circumstance, ignors moral reasoning by catagorizing the enslaved as less-than-human, which is based on fallacy.

Iandefor wrote: There are no moral implications in reason.

There is such a thing as moral reasoning, based on what we know about human nature and how societies function.

Iandefor wrote: Reason and science are just tools...they are to be led and not followed in my opinion.

Led by what? :-| Uhh... what? I never said any of that. Was this a mistake in formatting?

Iandefor · Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 55

EDIT:

nevermind

always red · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 16 Location: South Carolina

feederband wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote: feederband wrote:

Assuming you may believe in some sort of higher entity we cannot comprehend..Would you think that this entity has any controll over what happens on this world or just something we will have to deal with in the afterlife if there is one...?

All I can say is that I don't have the faintest idea. It is an interesting thing to wonder about.

I wonder if there is something beyond the universe that somehow set the universe we know in motion... why is there anything in the universe rather than nothing?

In my own thoughts there could be a higher entity in some sort of after life
. Although it just maybe wishful thinking...I just feel if there was a God that created all this we would know him a little more personally not just some story that's been passed on though time...What did set the universe in motion? Had to be something...Was it Big Bang? OK theory but I don't buy it...I think believers and non are both wrong on everything at this point in time..We have some amazing times ahead of us...

As I like to post and read forums relating to Christianity, I couldn't help but notice that you have commented quite a bit advocating reality. Do you mind if I ask why you care so much? If you dont believe in any kind of higher power, what are you actually advocating? I do not mean that you are not entitled to your opinion, but its seems like you might be looking for a better answer than just reality.

There was great irony in what you said, "I just feel if there was a God that created all this we would know him a little more personally not just some story that has been past through time." Please realize that that is the whole point of being a Believer, having a personal relationship with God.

Psalm 139 (What is unpersonal about this?)
O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

As far as the Big Bang goes, I think that you are wise to not buy into it. There is nothing more unscientific. You just can't get something from nothing.... but that is for another forum...

I have said a prayer for you feederband, because I think there might be something in you that wants to believe in Christ.
I will say that faith in him does not answer all of the questions of man. You see, God is the supreme being over all of the universe, he does not have to reveal all the wonders of himself to man. God created man with the concept of free will. He never wanted man to HAVE TO follow him.
2 corinthians 5:7 "We live by faith, not by sight." Those who demand proof of God's existance will never cease to demand more proof. They will never see anything miraculous, for they are choosing to look at life and the world as if it were just meaningless reality and everything is just coincidental. I do not have the power to argue with them. I wish and wish that I could just shake them and prove to them that God is real and that He loves them and that His love is like nothing they have EVER experianced, but I can't, and it kills me. All I can pray is that the Holy Spirit might open there eyes.

Open to questions, comments and smart remarks (if you actually have the nerve)

The love of Christ to all.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

always red wrote: As I like to post and read forums relating to Christianity, I couldn't help but notice that you have commented quite a bit advocating reality. Do you mind if I ask why you care so much? If you dont believe in any kind of higher power, what are you actually advocating? I do not mean that you are not entitled to your opinion, but its seems like you might be looking for a better answer than just reality.

A better answer....Perfect!!!! That Is what I'm looking for....Just haven't seen it yet...But religion does not hold the answer I'm looking for nor has science to a degree...

Oh and please don't use bible verses on me...Those things make me think that some people are a little off to believe these things when I know deep down they are not...

"2 corinthians 5:7 "We live by faith, not by sight." "
Then you are a blind man walking down a road that someone told you was the right way that is also blind and was told the same story to head down the road yet I fear the road ends to no where and you wasted your time on this..

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

always red wrote: There was great irony in what you said, "I just feel if there was a God that created all this we would know him a little more personally not just some story that has been past through time." Please realize that that is the whole point of being a Believer, having a personal relationship with God.

I don't want to be a believer...The only relationship you have with God is a one sided one at best...You just for some reason want to have this one sided relatioship...But thats fine for you not me..

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

always red wrote: because I think there might be something in you that wants to believe in Christ.

No I firmly disbelive in your christ...There maybe something else after this life but its not what any of us would expect...Although I hold this with little weight.. Why does there have to be a God?

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2783 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: "Worth" is a subjective concept, but if that's what reason tells you, then fine. Does that mean that reason is wrong? Not at all. It just means that you would probably rather ignor it Actually, worth is determined (using cold hard data) by supply and demand.

Quote: OMG, are you serious? That was NOT science OMG yes I'm serious. Have you never heard of the Aryan race and all that rot? Did you not see the charts and measurements :lol: Seriously, Germany had some of the top scientists in the world, and they used this data and science to justify their ends. I was demonstrating that the truth of "reason" and science are all about perception.

Quote: Sure reason can rationalize abortion, because a fetus isn't a person. Thank you for proving my point.

Quote: That is a lot different than rationalizing killing in the form of, say, flying a plane into the twin towers. I'm sure you don't want to compare death toll's on those issues.

Quote: Slavery, while one can "reason" why it would be selfishly useful in a circumstance, ignors moral reasoning And from where does this "moral" reason derive? Morality derives from religion. If you doubt this, look at the clay tablets of the first civilization and see where they say they got their moral code :wink:

Quote: ...reasoning by catagorizing the enslaved as less-than-human, which is based on fallacy. And what value is there in humanity? Using non morally tainted reasoning, humanity is essentially worthless outside of people that directly contribute to your life. There is no need to view them as less than human, if being human is essentially worthless. Morality, in a universal sense, is counter-intuitive to reason.

Quote: There is such a thing as moral reasoning, based on what we know about human nature and how societies function. Yes, but there is no inherent morality in reason. And as I have said, morality we have is derived from religion. Even if you are not religious, you grew up in a religious society and were therefore shaped by the excepted morality of your community. Any deviating from that morality will reflect varying degrees of a need for rebellion, but the ingrained morality will still be used as a center line to gage future morality in my opinion.

always red · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 16 Location: South Carolina

feederband wrote: always red wrote: As I like to post and read forums relating to Christianity, I couldn't help but notice that you have commented quite a bit advocating reality. Do you mind if I ask why you care so much? If you dont believe in any kind of higher power, what are you actually advocating? I do not mean that you are not entitled to your opinion, but its seems like you might be looking for a better answer than just reality.

A better answer....Perfect!!!! That Is what I'm looking for....Just haven't seen it yet...But religion does not hold the answer I'm looking for nor has science to a degree...

Oh and please don't use bible verses on me...Those things make me think that some people are a little off to believe these things when I know deep down they are not...

"2 corinthians 5:7 "We live by faith, not by sight." "
Then you are a blind man walking down a road that someone told you was the right way that is also blind and was told the same story to head down the road yet I fear the road ends to no where and you wasted your time on this..

You have greatly misinterpreted many of the verses that you have quoted. First of all, 2 Corinthians 5:7 is not to be taken as literal blindness. The reason I quoted this verse is because God is God and we are man. WE are nothing compared to his awesomeness. That is why following him demands faith and not sight, for we can never physically see the person of God. I know that you are hostile to the bible, but you are taking verses out of context and then misinterpreting them.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

always red wrote: You have greatly misinterpreted many of the verses that you have quoted. First of all, 2 Corinthians 5:7 is not to be taken as literal blindness. The reason I quoted this verse is because God is God and we are man. WE are nothing compared to his awesomeness. That is why following him demands faith and not sight, for we can never physically see the person of God. I know that you are hostile to the bible, but you are taking verses out of context and then misinterpreting them.

Of corse we will never see him in person...Thats my point it dont exsist...You are more awesome than your God...There is nothing we can prove your god has done and he has done nothing as of late to make it easy for us to believe...I'm really not hostile to the bible...But some of those verses are really off the wall..How do you know the context is real and you have interpreted them correctly..

Gryff said this earlier..

"It is so ironic that claims like that (which we would not believe if someone said they happened today) are believed with enthusiasm when they are written on ancient manuscripts by multiple writers at different time periods and thrown together and declared "holy"."

Think about it..

Gryff1nd0r · Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 2430 Location: Cambridge, MA

wormwood wrote: Quote: "Worth" is a subjective concept, but if that's what reason tells you, then fine. Does that mean that reason is wrong? Not at all. It just means that you would probably rather ignor it Actually, worth is determined (using cold hard data) by supply and demand.

How the hell can "supply and demand" determine the "worth" of life? Life is not owned or traded in a closed market system. It has personal worth to the people that possess it.

wormwood wrote: Quote: OMG, are you serious? That was NOT science OMG yes I'm serious. Have you never heard of the Aryan race and all that rot? Did you not see the charts and measurements :lol: Seriously, Germany had some of the top scientists in the world, and they used this data and science to justify their ends. I was demonstrating that the truth of "reason" and science are all about perception.

NO ITS NOT!!! Their conclusions were utterly, scientifically WRONG! The had an agenda, and they used pseudoscience to justify it. That is not science.

wormwood wrote: Quote: Sure reason can rationalize abortion, because a fetus isn't a person. Thank you for proving my point.

I didn't. You can also rationalize killing a cow for food, or killing a mosquito because it is biting you. It has to be a "person" before we call it true "murder".

So what is your point again?

wormwood wrote: Quote: That is a lot different than rationalizing killing in the form of, say, flying a plane into the twin towers. I'm sure you don't want to compare death toll's on those issues.

Umm.... I'm sure you don't want to count the death toll of concious, thinking, self-aware people.

If you want to count every microbe and bug that was killed in the terrorist attacks, then it would exceed that of abortion by billions. We don't count those "lives" because they are not people.

wormwood wrote: Quote: Slavery, while one can "reason" why it would be selfishly useful in a circumstance, ignors moral reasoning And from where does this "moral" reason derive? Morality derives from religion. If you doubt this, look at the clay tablets of the first civilization and see where they say they got their moral code :wink:

Actually, the fact that so many independently created religions share similar moral beliefs point to this startling fact:

Religion derives from an innate moral sense. :shock:

wormwood wrote: Quote: ...reasoning by catagorizing the enslaved as less-than-human, which is based on fallacy. And what value is there in humanity? Using non morally tainted reasoning, humanity is essentially worthless outside of people that directly contribute to your life. There is no need to view them as less than human, if being human is essentially worthless. Morality, in a universal sense, is counter-intuitive to reason.

No, there is such a thing as moral reasoning.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8999

If you want me to defend my faith, then I'll accept your challenge. I am not a Christian, not Jewish, not Muslim, but I believe that they are all right. Every individual has their own individual beliefs, and they are all correct, in the context of the individual.

For example, a devout Christian believes that Christ is the son of God. He is right, and his faith is true, until he tries to argue that to someone who does not share his belief in Christ. Christ is the son of God for Christians, but not for any who don't share that faith.

So, in a way, there are an infinite amount of God's. It is possible to have more Gods than people, since every individual has their own individual beliefs. If an atheist believes in no God(s), then there is/are no God(s) according to him.

So what happens when beliefs conflict? Then each person is correct. The way this is made possible is because there is no higher truth to uphold. The material truth is the only truth, because absolute truth does not exist.

As for my personal belief, I would say that there is a divine energy that connects everything and everyone together in a divine, cosmic, way. I am connected to another individual the same way I am connected to the bug I squash on the sidewalk.

But that is my belief, and it is true. I do not expect you to follow my faith, and whatever faith you do follow is also correct, for you.

Take it or leave it, but I'm an Individualist Existentialist Deist, and I follow my own faith.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

LostSoul3412 wrote: As for my personal belief, I would say that there is a divine energy that connects everything and everyone together in a divine, cosmic, way. I am connected to another individual the same way I am connected to the bug I squash on the sidewalk.

Hmmm ..Interesting...

Gryff1nd0r · Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 2430 Location: Cambridge, MA

LostSoul3412 wrote: If you want me to defend my faith, then I'll accept your challenge. I am not a Christian, not Jewish, not Muslim, but I believe that they are all right. Every individual has their own individual beliefs, and they are all correct, in the context of the individual.

For example, a devout Christian believes that Christ is the son of God. He is right, and his faith is true, until he tries to argue that to someone who does not share his belief in Christ. Christ is the son of God for Christians, but not for any who don't share that faith.

Oh wow, you beat them all.

Do you also believe that Santa Clause is real until the child realizes that Santa is not, in fact, real? No, that is proposterous. Why? Because whether or not a child sincerely believes in Santa, a fat man is never going to come down the chimney and drop off gifts on Christmas. Therefore, one can conclude that Santa is not real for anyone.

LostSoul3412 wrote: So, in a way, there are an infinite amount of God's. It is possible to have more Gods than people, since every individual has their own individual beliefs. If an atheist believes in no God(s), then there is/are no God(s) according to him.

So what happens when beliefs conflict? Then each person is correct. The way this is made possible is because there is no higher truth to uphold. The material truth is the only truth, because absolute truth does not exist.

You are wrong. The concept of truth being relative is as wrong as you can possibly get.

Absolute truth DOES exist, whether we are always 100% sure of it or not.

Therefore, since there is absolute truth in the universe, it is impossible to claim that people with conflicting views can all be right. They may all think they are right, but they cannot all be right. That is a fact.

LostSoul3412 wrote: As for my personal belief, I would say that there is a divine energy that connects everything and everyone together in a divine, cosmic, way. I am connected to another individual the same way I am connected to the bug I squash on the sidewalk.

But that is my belief, and it is true. I do not expect you to follow my faith, and whatever faith you do follow is also correct, for you.

Take it or leave it, but I'm an Individualist Existentialist Deist, and I follow my own faith.

Congratulations, you win the Fanciest-Name-For-A-Religion award.

Your reasoning, that there can be no real "truth", is so circular it is hilarious. If what you say is true.... then it can't be true. :lol:

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4208 Location: Florida

Iandefor wrote: What's wrong with faith?

After my Mother in Law came over last nite and once again condemed to hell...And threw a couple dozen of babbling bible verses at me I'm starting to think faith is a disease...I really think she needs help or at the least put that little book away for awhile...

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5362 Location: Boston, MA

Gryff1nd0r wrote: I was bummed out by the boring and unsubstantial replies to this thread. if nobody wants to defend themselves, than I am taking at as me being right, and you guys just being in denial.

Somebody please come up with an intelligent denfense of your religion, otherwise I am forced to assume that one does not exist (which is quite likely IMO).

SO COME ON!!! THIS IS A FULL FLEDGED ATTCK ON EVERYTHING YOU HOLD SACRED!!!

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54763&highlight=

First I want to say that while I may disagree with your conclusions it seems that you are always logical, intelligent and thoughtful.

The reason this question does not find bountiful replies has a simple answer which I will provide.

I do not feel the need to defend that, which has had no significant challenge. From a personal stand point it is an insulting question, like asking you to defend your love for your mother or sister? (Although I know you did not intend it to be that at all).

When we talk about theology or other such academic questions these are meant to be argued. But when you ask me to defend MY Faith you may as well ask me to defend my right to live.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2055 Location: Somewhere

Gryff1nd0r wrote: You are wrong. The concept of truth being relative is as wrong as you can possibly get.

Absolute truth DOES exist, whether we are always 100% sure of it or not.

Therefore, since there is absolute truth in the universe, it is impossible to claim that people with conflicting views can all be right. They may all think they are right, but they cannot all be right. That is a fact.

Really? Are we now at that point where you reveal your true motivation for this thread and start giving out Watchtower magazines? Or is this the point where you direct us to a special website where they'll give us a "Free" personality questionaire so that they can identify our weaknesses?

Cheers, Eternal