Political Crossfire Forums

[psholtz]

Sooo... continuing the discussion we started in the Judaism Forum, I'm wondering about citations concering Israel's Great Tribulation, and the Trouble of Jacob, etc, as detailed in Revelations..

cap'n, quote away.. :-D

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Revelation 7:1-12 - 1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed. 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me,"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

Not only is Israel set apart from Gentiles in this passage, a certain group within Israel is sealed against harm while Israel faces the Great Tribulation

The fact is this theme of Israel being set aside is found in the entire scripture. This passage from Revelation is the culmination of one of the central themes of scripture. Only someone totally unfamiliar with the scripture would make such a claim.

[psholtz]

Yes, quite interesting..

Is that the only verse in Relevations that mentions Israel?

[Clara Listensprechen]

No. Revelations mentions that the 12 tribes will be singing in that heavenly chorus and there's no mention of Christians with any similar assignment. The guy had to have been high when he wrote that. The predicted time of the Second Coming has come and gone, per the rest of the NT, and excuses had to be made by somebody.

John The Baptist in Matthew 3:7-12--
Quote: But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?...The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I ...His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

In his instructions to his apostles when he first sent them out, Jesus is on record as saying:
Quote: ... I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
Matthew 10:23 Further confirming thus:
Quote: I tell you the truth some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 16:28 A little more cryptically, in his O Jerusalem rant, Jesus says:
Quote: For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord"
Matthew 23:39
And Luke was convinced when he wrote Acts, quoting "Peter":
Quote: Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days.
Acts 3:24
In Romans 13:8-42 Paul gives instructions to not leave any debt outstanding because The Return is imminent; and clinches his instructions thus:
Quote: And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Now, don't anybody hand me any relativism saying that of course the end days are nearer after ya believe than when you first believed. Paul's words smack you down thus:
Quote: What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
1 Corinthians 7:29-31
Quote: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place...and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Opening paragraph of Revelation.
Quote: Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
1 John 2:18
Quote: The end of all things is near.
1 Peter 4:7
Quote: He was chosen before creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1 Peter 1:20
Quote: Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Quote: For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Thessalonians 4:19

This isn't the only instance where The Bible contradicts itself. It does so quite frequently.

[John]

Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to. :lol:

[psholtz]

John wrote: Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to.
If that's in reference to me, you should know that I'm well aware that my moniker of Revelations (in pluaral) is unorthodox and that I have very good reasons for using that moniker. Nor have I ever claimed to understand Relevations, nor do I read from it very often. Revelations seems quite insane to me, but perhaps someday I'll understand it. I place it on the same level of Mystery as Beresheith and Ezekiel... very, very arcane stuff.

If your accusation was *not* leveled against me, then no matter.

[soldierofchrist]

John wrote: Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to. :lol:
Haha talk of the Book of RevelationS is quite common. However, I have yet to find this book.

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to.
If that's in reference to me, you should know that I'm well aware that my moniker of Revelations (in pluaral) is unorthodox and that I have very good reasons for using that moniker. Nor have I ever claimed to understand Relevations, nor do I read from it very often. Revelations seems quite insane to me, but perhaps someday I'll understand it. I place it on the same level of Mystery as Beresheith and Ezekiel... very, very arcane stuff.

If your accusation was *not* leveled against me, then no matter.

I think it was Clara.

[Clara Listensprechen]

John wrote: Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to. :lol:

That's a versional difference, too. Y'all tend to discuss The Bible as if there's only one version. There are a lot of disparate, conflicting Bibles running around out there, some calling that particular book Apocalypse instead of Revelation(s), The Revelation of John.

Get used to it.

[cap'n queasy]

It's not an easy book to understand. There's no shame in that.

[cap'n queasy]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: John wrote: Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to. :lol:

That's a versional difference, too. Y'all tend to discuss The Bible as if there's only one version. There are a lot of disparate, conflicting Bibles running around out there, some calling that particular book Apocalypse instead of Revelation(s), The Revelation of John.

Get used to it.

Apocalypse is the word for Revelation in Koine Greek.

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to.
If that's in reference to me, you should know that I'm well aware that my moniker of Revelations (in pluaral) is unorthodox and that I have very good reasons for using that moniker. Nor have I ever claimed to understand Relevations, nor do I read from it very often. Revelations seems quite insane to me, but perhaps someday I'll understand it. I place it on the same level of Mystery as Beresheith and Ezekiel... very, very arcane stuff.

If your accusation was *not* leveled against me, then no matter.

Well, humble yourself...accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior receives the Holy Spirit and it will start to make sense to you. The wisdom of God is gonna seem very "arcane" to the blind and the deaf.

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's not an easy book to understand. There's no shame in that.

Sure it is...it even comes with it's own outline. :-D

Nothing in the Bible is easy to understand to the lost.

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to.
If that's in reference to me, you should know that I'm well aware that my moniker of Revelations (in pluaral) is unorthodox and that I have very good reasons for using that moniker. Nor have I ever claimed to understand Relevations, nor do I read from it very often. Revelations seems quite insane to me, but perhaps someday I'll understand it. I place it on the same level of Mystery as Beresheith and Ezekiel... very, very arcane stuff.

If your accusation was *not* leveled against me, then no matter.

Well, humble yourself...accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior receives the Holy Spirit and it will start to make sense to you. The wisdom of God is gonna seem very "arcane" to the blind and the deaf.
Strictly in terms of sentence structure and basic grammatics, there's nothing wrong w/ that sentence. I don't disagree w/ it in the slightest. However, there's something about those words that rings hollow.. Something like the "sounding brass and tinkling cymbals" of St. Paul, a "thing w/o life giving sound"

But no matter.. Perhaps its best if we foucs the discussion on Revelations + Israel instead, since that's kinda the point..

[psholtz]

John wrote: Nothing in the Bible is easy to understand to the lost.
I think the bit about "Don't Murder" is pretty obvious and self-explanatory (even, ironically, to a murderer).

Onward w/ the discussion about Israel + Revelation! :-D

[John]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: John wrote: Note: Anyone who gets the name of the book that they clam to be knowledgeable about WRONG.....isn't someone you really wanna listen to. :lol:

That's a versional difference, too. Y'all tend to discuss The Bible as if there's only one version. There are a lot of disparate, conflicting Bibles running around out there, some calling that particular book Apocalypse instead of Revelation(s), The Revelation of John.

Get used to it.

Ever heard it called Apocalypsi? :lol:

And it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It's called this because of the first sentence in the book.


Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.



It's comical to see just how much people will talk about something without understanding the basics.

[psholtz]

John wrote: And it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It's called this because of the first sentence in the book.
In my KJV, the title of the book is "The Relevation of St. John the Divine"

Anything to add about Israel or the Trouble of Jacob, rather than nitpicking about grammatical technicalities? I know you see yourself as a defender of the oral tradition, and -- in its own way -- that's nice and noble, but we get the picture, ok? :-D

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: And it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It's called this because of the first sentence in the book.
In my KJV, the title of the book is "The Relevation of St. John the Divine"

Anything to add about Israel or the Trouble of Jacob, rather than nitpicking about grammatical technicalities? I know you see yourself as a defender of the oral tradition, and -- in its own way -- that's nice and noble, but we get the picture, ok? :-D


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2030;&version=49;

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: And it's the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It's called this because of the first sentence in the book.
In my KJV, the title of the book is "The Relevation of St. John the Divine"

Anything to add about Israel or the Trouble of Jacob, rather than nitpicking about grammatical technicalities? I know you see yourself as a defender of the oral tradition, and -- in its own way -- that's nice and noble, but we get the picture, ok? :-D


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2030;&version=49;
Sure, and now the sounding brass and tinkling symbals have magically stopped themselves.. :lol:

I think there's *something* you're trying to say here, but I'm not sure what it is. Perhaps you think there's a connection between Jeremiah and something in Relevation? If there is, it's certainly not obvious.

I'd you like, I'd be happy to hear you expound upon it..

[cap'n queasy]

I think that was a cymbal.

Must be a marching band somewhere around here. :-D