Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: DwightEisenhower wrote: To clarify the Socrates bit, the only historical evidence for Socrates' existence comes from Plato, his student. (Unless someone can correct this). Surely the relationship of Plato / Socrates gives more room for bias than that of Josephus / Jesus.

If anyone does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth lived because of the "lack of credible evidence," they can not believe that Socrates lived without becoming flaming hypocrites.

here is where christians lose me. let's say your story checks out, who cares if socrates lived or not? it wouldn't really make any difference one way or the other. if, however, jesus didn't exist, christianity would disolve... a bit different, don't you think?

however, i think there is a lot more evidence that shows socrates existed. several contemporary sources...

The same logic that you claim would disolve Christianity, would also cause it to never form (if Jesus didn't exist). You refuse to look at the FACT that it did form and apply your own logic.

You do know that Jesus has been written about and examined more than ANY historical figure. ANY.

So the Socratic Method would not exist if Socrates never existed? Fallacy.

It is centered in a historical event.

Christianity exists today because of the Resurection of Jesus Christ....

It's a belief of a historical event.

Jesus didn't tell us anything that the Holy Spirit can't reveal to you through the Old Testament. His is the Messiah....He expalined the true meaning of the Law. The whole meaning is to prepare you for accepting HIM (Who was a historical figure who died and rose from the dead as PROOF that what He was saying was fact).

Without there being a real Jesus...Christianity doesn't make any sense. The people who started it would have ALL had to be insane.

[Random Evil Guy]

John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: DwightEisenhower wrote: To clarify the Socrates bit, the only historical evidence for Socrates' existence comes from Plato, his student. (Unless someone can correct this). Surely the relationship of Plato / Socrates gives more room for bias than that of Josephus / Jesus.

If anyone does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth lived because of the "lack of credible evidence," they can not believe that Socrates lived without becoming flaming hypocrites.

here is where christians lose me. let's say your story checks out, who cares if socrates lived or not? it wouldn't really make any difference one way or the other. if, however, jesus didn't exist, christianity would disolve... a bit different, don't you think?

however, i think there is a lot more evidence that shows socrates existed. several contemporary sources...

The same logic that you claim would disolve Christianity, would also cause it to never form (if Jesus didn't exist). You refuse to look at the FACT that it did form and apply your own logic.

You do know that Jesus has been written about and examined more than ANY historical figure. ANY.

sure it can. christianity didn't take off until long after the supposed death of jesus(and all the eye witnesses). it could very well be based on a myth. just look at the stories of king arthur, achilles(all the greek stuff), perseus, all pagan/ancient religions etc.

as for how christianity rose. mormonism grew faster than the early christianity did and i doubt very much you believe joseph smith to be nothing but a con artist...

[mattwa33193]

John wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: DwightEisenhower wrote: To clarify the Socrates bit, the only historical evidence for Socrates' existence comes from Plato, his student. (Unless someone can correct this). Surely the relationship of Plato / Socrates gives more room for bias than that of Josephus / Jesus.

If anyone does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth lived because of the "lack of credible evidence," they can not believe that Socrates lived without becoming flaming hypocrites.

here is where christians lose me. let's say your story checks out, who cares if socrates lived or not? it wouldn't really make any difference one way or the other. if, however, jesus didn't exist, christianity would disolve... a bit different, don't you think?

however, i think there is a lot more evidence that shows socrates existed. several contemporary sources...

The same logic that you claim would disolve Christianity, would also cause it to never form (if Jesus didn't exist). You refuse to look at the FACT that it did form and apply your own logic.

You do know that Jesus has been written about and examined more than ANY historical figure. ANY.

So the Socratic Method would not exist if Socrates never existed? Fallacy.

It is centered in a historical event.

Christianity exists today because of the Resurection of Jesus Christ....

It's a belief of a historical event.

Jesus didn't tell us anything that the Holy Spirit can't reveal to you through the Old Testament. His is the Messiah....He expalined the true meaning of the Law. The whole meaning is to prepare you for accepting HIM (Who was a historical figure who died and rose from the dead as PROOF that what He was saying was fact).

Without there being a real Jesus...Christianity doesn't make any sense. The people who started it would have ALL had to be insane.

Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

[John]

Quote: sure it can. christianity didn't take off until long after the supposed death of jesus(and all the eye witnesses). it could very well be based on a myth. just look at the stories of king arthur, achilles(all the greek stuff), perseus, all pagan/ancient religions etc.

as for how christianity rose. mormonism grew faster than the early christianity did and i doubt very much you believe joseph smith to be nothing but a con artist...

Not true. Christianity "took off" directly after the historical events happened. Within a couple months there were thousands of Christians.

[John]

Quote: Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

Love your nieghbor and be kind can be found in other religions. But Christianity is a bird of a different color. It's about having Faith in a historical figure. In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"

[psholtz]

John wrote: It's about having Faith in a historical figure.
Christianity is about having faith in God, John..

Quote: In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"
The Christ is no man, John..

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: It's about having Faith in a historical figure.
Christianity is about having faith in God, John..

Quote: In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"
The Christ is no man, John..

According to Christianity....the Messiah (Christ) is Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God.

Start a thread in the religion section on NeoPlatonism if that's what you want to discuss.

[mattwa33193]

John wrote: Quote: Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

Love your nieghbor and be kind can be found in other religions. But Christianity is a bird of a different color. It's about having Faith in a historical figure. In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"

Does it matter if the concepts exist in other faiths? Is this about living right or being right?

Christianity was nearly extinct at the time of Constantine's deathbed conversion. It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.

[John]

mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: Quote: Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

Love your nieghbor and be kind can be found in other religions. But Christianity is a bird of a different color. It's about having Faith in a historical figure. In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"

Does it matter if the concepts exist in other faiths? Is this about living right or being right?

Christianity was nearly extinct at the time of Constantine's deathbed conversion. It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.

It exists becuase of something that happened in history.

And Christianity was not nearly extict at the time of Constantine's death.

[John]

Quote: It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.


The truth is that it exists inspite of political success.

[Random Evil Guy]

John wrote: Quote: sure it can. christianity didn't take off until long after the supposed death of jesus(and all the eye witnesses). it could very well be based on a myth. just look at the stories of king arthur, achilles(all the greek stuff), perseus, all pagan/ancient religions etc.

as for how christianity rose. mormonism grew faster than the early christianity did and i doubt very much you believe joseph smith to be nothing but a con artist...

Not true. Christianity "took off" directly after the historical events happened. Within a couple months there were thousands of Christians.

took off? i guess that is why he, jesus, is barely mentioned outside the gospels in the first centuries after his supposed death. yeah, it took off... 8:)

[mattwa33193]

John wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: Quote: Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

Love your nieghbor and be kind can be found in other religions. But Christianity is a bird of a different color. It's about having Faith in a historical figure. In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"

Does it matter if the concepts exist in other faiths? Is this about living right or being right?

Christianity was nearly extinct at the time of Constantine's deathbed conversion. It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.

It exists becuase of something that happened in history.

And Christianity was not nearly extict at the time of Constantine's death.

A few hundred Christians living in caves or hiding their beliefs and a Roman emperor who had vowed to eradicate them from the face of the earth is pretty close to exinct. If Constantine had not converted (if he ever really did) Jesus would be as much a topic of conversation today as Zoraster.

It exists because of the story of something that happened in history, whether it actually happened or not. Christians don't believe in Jesus and then accept the story, they believe the story and then accept Jesus.

[mattwa33193]

Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: Quote: sure it can. christianity didn't take off until long after the supposed death of jesus(and all the eye witnesses). it could very well be based on a myth. just look at the stories of king arthur, achilles(all the greek stuff), perseus, all pagan/ancient religions etc.

as for how christianity rose. mormonism grew faster than the early christianity did and i doubt very much you believe joseph smith to be nothing but a con artist...

Not true. Christianity "took off" directly after the historical events happened. Within a couple months there were thousands of Christians.

took off? i guess that is why he, jesus, is barely mentioned outside the gospels in the first centuries after his supposed death. yeah, it took off... 8:)

Legend has it that there were 3000 converts at the first Pentacost.

[Random Evil Guy]

mattwa33193 wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: Quote: sure it can. christianity didn't take off until long after the supposed death of jesus(and all the eye witnesses). it could very well be based on a myth. just look at the stories of king arthur, achilles(all the greek stuff), perseus, all pagan/ancient religions etc.

as for how christianity rose. mormonism grew faster than the early christianity did and i doubt very much you believe joseph smith to be nothing but a con artist...

Not true. Christianity "took off" directly after the historical events happened. Within a couple months there were thousands of Christians.

took off? i guess that is why he, jesus, is barely mentioned outside the gospels in the first centuries after his supposed death. yeah, it took off... 8:)

Legend has it that there were 3000 converts at the first Pentacost.

according tho who? ah, yes. the bible is true, because the bible says it is true. the ultimate logical loop...christianity didn't really get a foot hold until centuries after the alleged death of jesus.

[John]

mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: Quote: Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

Love your nieghbor and be kind can be found in other religions. But Christianity is a bird of a different color. It's about having Faith in a historical figure. In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"

Does it matter if the concepts exist in other faiths? Is this about living right or being right?

Christianity was nearly extinct at the time of Constantine's deathbed conversion. It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.

It exists becuase of something that happened in history.

And Christianity was not nearly extict at the time of Constantine's death.

A few hundred Christians living in caves or hiding their beliefs and a Roman emperor who had vowed to eradicate them from the face of the earth is pretty close to exinct. If Constantine had not converted (if he ever really did) Jesus would be as much a topic of conversation today as Zoraster.

It exists because of the story of something that happened in history, whether it actually happened or not. Christians don't believe in Jesus and then accept the story, they believe the story and then accept Jesus.

Christianity was legalized well before Constantine's conversion. And the whole point of him doing it was to have an instant army of Christians who would fight for him. (Because there were a lot of them)

Persecution only caused Christianity to grow.

[Jonah]

mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: Quote: Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

Love your nieghbor and be kind can be found in other religions. But Christianity is a bird of a different color. It's about having Faith in a historical figure. In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"

Does it matter if the concepts exist in other faiths? Is this about living right or being right?

Christianity was nearly extinct at the time of Constantine's deathbed conversion. It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.

It exists becuase of something that happened in history.

And Christianity was not nearly extict at the time of Constantine's death.

A few hundred Christians living in caves or hiding their beliefs and a Roman emperor who had vowed to eradicate them from the face of the earth is pretty close to exinct. If Constantine had not converted (if he ever really did) Jesus would be as much a topic of conversation today as Zoraster.

It exists because of the story of something that happened in history, whether it actually happened or not. Christians don't believe in Jesus and then accept the story, they believe the story and then accept Jesus.

Not at all true. Christianity exists because God exists and is working on people's hearts to this day.
I did not become a Christian because I heard the story and believed it. I became a Christian when, at a time in my life of deep loneliness and depression, I prayed for God to come into my life if he was real. No one was around when I did this. I had been reading the bible, but understood none of it. In fact I had been making fun of the bible to others. The next day, the bible took on a whole new flavor. I began reading the gospels as I had been doing, but now I began to realize that Jesus was more than just a man, that he had died for me, that he was my Shephard, my Savior, etc. I was filled with hugh joy, man. I finally realized that I was, indeed, loved. After I had received Jesus, he gave me faith to believe. That faith has only grown with time.

[mattwa33193]

John wrote: Quote: It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.


The truth is that it exists inspite of political success.

Huh?

[Random Evil Guy]

Jonah wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: Quote: Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

Love your nieghbor and be kind can be found in other religions. But Christianity is a bird of a different color. It's about having Faith in a historical figure. In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"

Does it matter if the concepts exist in other faiths? Is this about living right or being right?

Christianity was nearly extinct at the time of Constantine's deathbed conversion. It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.

It exists becuase of something that happened in history.

And Christianity was not nearly extict at the time of Constantine's death.

A few hundred Christians living in caves or hiding their beliefs and a Roman emperor who had vowed to eradicate them from the face of the earth is pretty close to exinct. If Constantine had not converted (if he ever really did) Jesus would be as much a topic of conversation today as Zoraster.

It exists because of the story of something that happened in history, whether it actually happened or not. Christians don't believe in Jesus and then accept the story, they believe the story and then accept Jesus.

Not at all true. Christianity exists because God exists and is working on people's hearts to this day.


does that mean allah, shiva, brahma etc also exist?

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: It's about having Faith in a historical figure.
Christianity is about having faith in God, John..

Quote: In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"
The Christ is no man, John..

According to Christianity....the Messiah (Christ) is Jesus.
According to a strange sect of Judaism called Zionist Christianity, what you wrote above is true.

Quote: Jesus Christ is God.
The early Christians held no such belief.

Christianity is about faith in God... and the Christ is no man.

These are no statements of "faith" or "belief", they are plan and obvious facts. Above and beyond this there is room for "debate" and "opinion", but if you're not willing to accept these basic fundamentals, then there's probably not much room for further discourse.

Quote: Start a thread in the religion section on NeoPlatonism if that's what you want to discuss.
Christianity .. esp Pauline Christianity .. is *extremely* Neo-Platonic

Have a look:

http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2004/april/mtpub2.asp

[Jonah]

Random Evil Guy wrote: Jonah wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: mattwa33193 wrote: John wrote: Quote: Makes sense with or without Jesus. The value is in the lessons he taught, whether He actually lived (which I believe He did) or He was a fictional character. The lessons are real. The philosophy is real. The legends (not using that word as a derogatory) built around Him may give Him additional credibilty, but they are not necessary for His words to have power. Tolerance, respect for others, self-sacrifice, these are all valuable concepts in and of themselves.

Love your nieghbor and be kind can be found in other religions. But Christianity is a bird of a different color. It's about having Faith in a historical figure. In the man who is Christ...hence the name "Christianity"

Does it matter if the concepts exist in other faiths? Is this about living right or being right?

Christianity was nearly extinct at the time of Constantine's deathbed conversion. It didn't become the forcce it is today because of it's truth, but because of it's political success.

It exists becuase of something that happened in history.

And Christianity was not nearly extict at the time of Constantine's death.

A few hundred Christians living in caves or hiding their beliefs and a Roman emperor who had vowed to eradicate them from the face of the earth is pretty close to exinct. If Constantine had not converted (if he ever really did) Jesus would be as much a topic of conversation today as Zoraster.

It exists because of the story of something that happened in history, whether it actually happened or not. Christians don't believe in Jesus and then accept the story, they believe the story and then accept Jesus.

Not at all true. Christianity exists because God exists and is working on people's hearts to this day.


does that mean allah, shiva, brahma etc also exist?

Well, the Muslims believe in allah, and as I understand it, they base this partially on the Torah. I believe in the God who inspired the Torah, don't know that "allah" is His name, though.

Shiva and brahma fall more under the category of the bible's definition of the "god of this age." :wink: