Political Crossfire Forums

Politically_Correct · Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 282 Location: Mississippi

From http://matt-hubbard.org/page.php?4.2

Quote: There are three questions asked when considering whether to be pro-abortion or anti-abortion.

1. Is this a human life?
2. Should we grant equal protection by law to all living humans in our nation?
3. Should we acknowledge rights and choices of women?

I have taken the liberty of looking up a few words on www.dictionary.com.

Alive:
1. Having life; living.
2. In existence or operation; active.
3. Full of living or moving things.
4. Full of activity or animation; lively.

Human (noun form):
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person.
Human (adj. form):
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans.
2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals.
3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans.
4. Having the form of a human.
5. Made up of humans.

Person
1. A living human.
2. An individual of specified character.
3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
4. The living body of a human.
5. Physique and general appearance.

I have a pretty solid belief regarding abortion. It is not necessary under any circumstance. People argue that if the mother is in danger, has been raped, or it is incest, then it is acceptable, I disagree.

If a lady has been impregnated by rape or incest, then she can still have the child and put it up for adoption. There are countless married couples all over the world trying to have children, and they cannot reproduce. By putting these children up for adoption, and giving them a chance at life, you are giving potentially wonderful, loving people, become parents. The argument of incest born children having mental defects is void in this argument. There are wonderful programs in the adoption field for special needs children, they just need to be taken advantage of rather than running to a Planned Parenting clinic whenever the EPT shows pink.

If the pregnancy is causing harm to the mother, even death, it should be treated like any other disease or ailment. The baby inside of the mother is a living, breathing, and eating soul, which has a heart that pumps blood. If a person needed a heart transplant to live, and the only other person in the world with a heart that could be used, was the President of the United States of America, you would not kill the President and place his heart in the person who needed it. It’s not logical to end one life, to save the life of another, if the life you would be ending, is perfectly healthy, regardless if it is in the womb or out of it.

Abortion has become too much a “planning” tool. It is being used as birth control, and this is completely unacceptable. Murder is wrong, whether it takes place on a table in a cold doctor’s office, or in a dark back alley.

It’s time to step up to the plate. Let’s give children a chance to see the light of day.

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2259 Location: Edinburgh

Among other issues I take with your opinion, your position that abortion is unacceptable to have an abortion even to save the mother's life ignores the fact that it is the fetus' presence that is killing the mother, not killing the fetus which saves the mother.

Furthermore, in some cases such as ectopic pregnancy, the fetus has effectively zero chance at viability, while the mother does. Aborting the fetus will result in the mother living and the fetus dying, while not aborting will result in both of them dying.

Finally, (almost) no one actively wants abortions abortions to happen; people want them to be a legal choice. There are pro-choice people, and a range of people against abortion, but no one is pro-abortion.

Saf · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 377

It's clearly not a human life. It's a sack of tissue, much like my nose, sperm and left eye. The concept of "soul" is utterly meaningless and should be kept in the churches and asylums where it belongs. This is nothing but thinly-veiled sexism.

Nicholas · Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 321 Location: Rural backwater

Mmm, your sentences are piffle at places. The choice of words and the linguistic structure of your views on abortion tells us something about you. You say that women are obliged to give birth from an induced rape, just for the adoption benefit, actually ignores any reason for vital abortions to be carried out, as Prole has pointed out. If your ten year old daughter was raped and she turned out to be pregnant, would you make her give birth? (Given all the emotional and aging consequences resulting from someone under the age of consent). It's a fragile position that is taken with extreme care. When a woman's life is threatened, I do support abortion by demand, if the situation is absolute necessity.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Politically_Correct wrote: From http://matt-hubbard.org/page.php?4.2

Quote: There are three questions asked when considering whether to be pro-abortion or anti-abortion.

1. Is this a human life?
2. Should we grant equal protection by law to all living humans in our nation?
3. Should we acknowledge rights and choices of women?
Sophistry. Here is another one:

Matt can't fly.
A rock can't fly.
Therefore, Matt is a rock.

Yes, sophistry is so useful and meaningful, don't you think?

War Lord · Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 367

Saf wrote: It's clearly not a human life. It's a sack of tissue, much like my nose, sperm and left eye. The concept of "soul" is utterly meaningless and should be kept in the churches and asylums where it belongs. This is nothing but thinly-veiled sexism. what makes life if there is no sole?

spearsy23 · Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 5624 Location: Fulton, Ks

War Lord wrote: Saf wrote: It's clearly not a human life. It's a sack of tissue, much like my nose, sperm and left eye. The concept of "soul" is utterly meaningless and should be kept in the churches and asylums where it belongs. This is nothing but thinly-veiled sexism. what makes life if there is no sole?

when it becomes sentient would be the popular consensus among pro-choicers i do believe

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Saf wrote: It's clearly not a human life. It's a sack of tissue, much like my nose, sperm and left eye.
If it wasn't for that "sack of tissue," which you once were, your nose sperm and left eye would not exist today unless they were all as artificial as your "tissue" argument.

Quote: The concept of "soul" is utterly meaningless and should be kept in the churches and asylums where it belongs.
If the USA have lost their "souls" though, how will the body politic survive other than as a dead corpse?

Quote: This is nothing but thinly-veiled sexism.
Feminism and homosexism are nothing but veiled sexism and anti-theism.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

War Lord wrote: Saf wrote: It's clearly not a human life. It's a sack of tissue, much like my nose, sperm and left eye. The concept of "soul" is utterly meaningless and should be kept in the churches and asylums where it belongs. This is nothing but thinly-veiled sexism. what makes life if there is no sole?
Life is what you get when you are fortunate enough not to have been aborted by some medical psychopath.

Revenant · Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 17089 Location: Bliss

No matter what, abortion sure a sticky situation.... :lol:

Well someone had to say it.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

Politically_Correct wrote: From http://matt-hubbard.org/page.php?4.2

Quote: There are three questions asked when considering whether to be pro-abortion or anti-abortion.

1. Is this a human life?
2. Should we grant equal protection by law to all living humans in our nation?
3. Should we acknowledge rights and choices of women?

I have taken the liberty of looking up a few words on www.dictionary.com.

Alive:
1. Having life; living.
2. In existence or operation; active.
3. Full of living or moving things.
4. Full of activity or animation; lively.

Human (noun form):
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person.
Human (adj. form):
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans.
2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals.
3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans.
4. Having the form of a human.
5. Made up of humans.

Person
1. A living human.
2. An individual of specified character.
3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
4. The living body of a human.
5. Physique and general appearance.

I have a pretty solid belief regarding abortion. It is not necessary under any circumstance. People argue that if the mother is in danger, has been raped, or it is incest, then it is acceptable, I disagree.

If a lady has been impregnated by rape or incest, then she can still have the child and put it up for adoption. There are countless married couples all over the world trying to have children, and they cannot reproduce. By putting these children up for adoption, and giving them a chance at life, you are giving potentially wonderful, loving people, become parents. The argument of incest born children having mental defects is void in this argument. There are wonderful programs in the adoption field for special needs children, they just need to be taken advantage of rather than running to a Planned Parenting clinic whenever the EPT shows pink.

If the pregnancy is causing harm to the mother, even death, it should be treated like any other disease or ailment. The baby inside of the mother is a living, breathing, and eating soul, which has a heart that pumps blood. If a person needed a heart transplant to live, and the only other person in the world with a heart that could be used, was the President of the United States of America, you would not kill the President and place his heart in the person who needed it. It’s not logical to end one life, to save the life of another, if the life you would be ending, is perfectly healthy, regardless if it is in the womb or out of it.

Abortion has become too much a “planning” tool. It is being used as birth control, and this is completely unacceptable. Murder is wrong, whether it takes place on a table in a cold doctor’s office, or in a dark back alley.

It’s time to step up to the plate. Let’s give children a chance to see the light of day.

Why did you bother to look up and post all those definitions if you weren't going to discuss the questions that arise from them?

The only one I have seen debated is at what point does a fetus become a person. By your own definitions, this requires self-awareness, which is not gained at the moment of conception. Most believe it happens at some point in the second trimester. Awareness of its environment (response to light stimuli for example) comes earlier, and attempts are often made to use this as proof that the fetus is human. Cats, plants, bugs, all are aware of their environment and able to respond to it. This does not make them human.

The idea that a woman should be allowed to be forcibly impregnated is appalling. You are, in effect, stating that the fetus is in fact a person at the moment of conception and that the woman ceases to be a person at the moment of conception. That's where you are going to run into Constitutional issues, regardless of what happens with Roe v. Wade.

You say that if the pregnancy is causing harm to the mother it should be treated like any other illness. Hate to tell you, but if a person has a foreign organism in their body that is causing medical distress, the standard treatment is to kill or remove the organism.

Murder requires a human victim. That component is missing from a legal abortion.

galba · Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 675 Location: Texas

Saf wrote: It's clearly not a human life.
Is it a cow life?

Saf wrote:
It's a sack of tissue, much like my nose, sperm and left eye.

Your nose and left eye will develop into a human being if left on your body for nine months?
Your sperm is diploid?

Saf wrote:
The concept of "soul" is utterly meaningless and should be kept in the churches and asylums where it belongs. This is nothing but thinly-veiled sexism.
What does a soul have to do with any of this?

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Prole wrote: Finally, (almost) no one actively wants abortions abortions to happen; people want them to be a legal choice. There are pro-choice people, and a range of people against abortion, but no one is pro-abortion.
Women who get their babies aborted and the medics who butcher them are pro-abortion. They even advertise to promote their business.

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

joe christian wrote: Prole wrote: Finally, (almost) no one actively wants abortions abortions to happen; people want them to be a legal choice. There are pro-choice people, and a range of people against abortion, but no one is pro-abortion.
Women who get their babies aborted and the medics who butcher them are pro-abortion. They even advertise to promote their business.

Yes, and exterminators are pro-roaches, and body shops are pro-traffic accidents, and funeral directors are pro-death.

Yojimbo · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 327 Location: Tallahassee, FL

Quote: It’s not logical to end one life, to save the life of another, if the life you would be ending, is perfectly healthy, regardless if it is in the womb or out of it.

So that applies to the mother as well.
Then why save the fetus and end her life?

:lol:
What a load of s**t.
No one else caught that?

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Renevant wrote: No matter what, abortion sure a sticky situation.... :lol:

Well someone had to say it.
Since abortion is against the law of God the spilled blood of 45 million innocent American babies spells the end of secularism in America.

Yojimbo · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 327 Location: Tallahassee, FL

joe christian wrote: Renevant wrote: No matter what, abortion sure a sticky situation.... :lol:

Well someone had to say it.
Since abortion is against the law of God the spilled blood of 45 million innocent American babies spells the end of secularism in America.

The s**t you post has to be a joke. Right?

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Yojimbo wrote: joe christian wrote: Renevant wrote: No matter what, abortion sure a sticky situation.... :lol:

Well someone had to say it.
Since abortion is against the law of God the spilled blood of 45 million innocent American babies spells the end of secularism in America.

The s**t you post has to be a joke. Right?
Why? Does it make you laugh? I don't find it particulary funny that millions of Muslims are chanting "Death to America." Do you?

We are in for a long war, my friend, and the secularists are the cause of it. Ready to die for the cause?

Yojimbo · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 327 Location: Tallahassee, FL

joe christian wrote: Yojimbo wrote: joe christian wrote: Renevant wrote: No matter what, abortion sure a sticky situation.... :lol:

Well someone had to say it.
Since abortion is against the law of God the spilled blood of 45 million innocent American babies spells the end of secularism in America.

The s**t you post has to be a joke. Right?
Why? Does it make you laugh? I don't find it particulary funny that millions of Muslims are chanting "Death to America." Do you?

We are in for a long war, my friend, and the secularists are the cause of it. Ready to die for the cause?

Yes it does make me laugh. Alot. Where did the holy war rhetoric come from? I thought we were discussing abortion. How exactly did secularists start a war? I'm a little confused.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Yojimbo wrote: joe christian wrote: Yojimbo wrote:
The s**t you post has to be a joke. Right?

Why? Does it make you laugh? I don't find it particulary funny that millions of Muslims are chanting "Death to America." Do you?

We are in for a long war, my friend, and the secularists are the cause of it. Ready to die for the cause?

Yes it does make me laugh. Alot. Where did the holy war rhetoric come from? I thought we were discussing abortion. How exactly did secularists start a war?

Secularists have declared war on Judeo-Christianity and Islam by legitimizing abortion, sodomy and secular democracy instead of theocracy. The religious right in the US has declared holy war on abortion, feminism, homosexism, atheism, darwinism and secularism.