Political Crossfire Forums

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10973 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Which are more important? Humans or animals?

Animals are nothing compared to the well being of a human being.

Another question for the animal rights activists,

Say you or a loved one was very ill or dieing, and the only way to find a cure was through animal testing, would you take the drug? Would you disown the loved one if they took the drug? Or would you rather you and/or your loved one die just to save a insignificant rat?

DarkMerlin · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject:

Humans are animals.

John Galt · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 21579 Location: Minnesota

DarkMerlin wrote: Humans are animals.

Not morally. What distinguishes humans from animals is that humans have reason as their faculty to survive while animals rely on instinct. Animals have zero moral significance so the obvious answer has to be humans are more important than animals. One drop of human blood is morally worth more than the life of every animal on the planet.

DarkMerlin · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject:

John Galt wrote: DarkMerlin wrote: Humans are animals.

Not morally. What distinguishes humans from animals is that humans have reason as their faculty to survive while animals rely on instinct. Animals have zero moral significance so the obvious answer has to be humans are more important than animals. One drop of human blood is morally worth more than the life of every animal on the planet.

You are obviously deeply infected by this whole meme, since you seem to spout it off pretty much the same way every chance you get. I have objected to it numerous times and asked you to provide support for your statement, but all I ever get is the same thing said slightly differently, with no new information or reasoning backing it up. I'm tempted to stop arguing about it, but I'm not really pointing this out for your benefit but more for people who might just believe you without giving it thought.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2055 Location: Somewhere

DarkMerlin wrote: John Galt wrote: DarkMerlin wrote: Humans are animals.

Not morally. What distinguishes humans from animals is that humans have reason as their faculty to survive while animals rely on instinct. Animals have zero moral significance so the obvious answer has to be humans are more important than animals. One drop of human blood is morally worth more than the life of every animal on the planet.

You are obviously deeply infected by this whole meme, since you seem to spout it off pretty much the same way every chance you get. I have objected to it numerous times and asked you to provide support for your statement, but all I ever get is the same thing said slightly differently, with no new information or reasoning backing it up. I'm tempted to stop arguing about it, but I'm not really pointing this out for your benefit but more for people who might just believe you without giving it thought.

I wouldn't worry too much mate. You'll often find that with religious fanatics such as John Galt unsubstantiated dogma is all they have to go on. When one lives their lives and views their world according to such a dogma, the need to constantly reference it is as impulsive as any Christian who utters the words "praise the Lord" even for the most menial events.

Cheers, Eternal

Infinite911911 · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:30 am Post subject:

DarkMerlin wrote: Humans are animals.

:tu:

Ch33kY · Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 1281

Humans are a species of Animals. Survival is the most important and instinctive thing for any species of Animal. Thus we Humans regard ourselves as more important so that we can ensure we survive above all else.

Humans largely rely upon Animals for a source of food and labour. I don't believe Animals are insignificant, but if it meant eating an Animal to stay alive, I most certianly would - and do!

It's all about survivial.

P.S. 'Praise the Lord!'

:-D:-D

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10973 Location: Podunk, Colorado

DarkMerlin wrote: Humans are animals.
But we are vastly more advanced and have dominion over animals.

DarkMerlin · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject:

Wolverine wrote: DarkMerlin wrote: Humans are animals.
But we are vastly more advanced and have dominion over animals.

An elephant is "vastly more advanced" in certain ways than a shrew, but both are, like humans, still animals. In many ways other animals are more advanced then us; fish, for instance, are far better at living under water than humans are. First you need to define "advanced," but even then it is a quantitative distinction, not a qualitative one. Humans are animals any way you cut it.

As for dominion, says who? You? Other humans? This is the mentality of the slave master.

DarkMerlin · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject:

Eternal wrote: DarkMerlin wrote: John Galt wrote: DarkMerlin wrote: Humans are animals.

Not morally. What distinguishes humans from animals is that humans have reason as their faculty to survive while animals rely on instinct. Animals have zero moral significance so the obvious answer has to be humans are more important than animals. One drop of human blood is morally worth more than the life of every animal on the planet.

You are obviously deeply infected by this whole meme, since you seem to spout it off pretty much the same way every chance you get. I have objected to it numerous times and asked you to provide support for your statement, but all I ever get is the same thing said slightly differently, with no new information or reasoning backing it up. I'm tempted to stop arguing about it, but I'm not really pointing this out for your benefit but more for people who might just believe you without giving it thought.

I wouldn't worry too much mate. You'll often find that with religious fanatics such as John Galt unsubstantiated dogma is all they have to go on. When one lives their lives and views their world according to such a dogma, the need to constantly reference it is as impulsive as any Christian who utters the words "praise the Lord" even for the most menial events.

Cheers, Eternal

Oh, I know. Being able to apply the same set of ideas to every question and situation is one of the distinct advantages to having an overly simplified view of the world. I'll admit that it would be far easier to simply pick a belief system like randianism and let that be the answer to all my dilemas, but such is the path to the dark side. Still, I find myself compelled to argue against such fanatics, if only to provide testament that there are other, less simplistic ways of understanding the world.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10973 Location: Podunk, Colorado

DarkMerlin wrote:
An elephant is "vastly more advanced" in certain ways than a shrew, but both are, like humans, still animals. In many ways other animals are more advanced then us; fish, for instance, are far better at living under water than humans are. First you need to define "advanced," but even then it is a quantitative distinction, not a qualitative one. Humans are animals any way you cut it.
Advanced being technology. with enough resources, people could live anywhere in the world. The expense being the greatest factor.

Quote: As for dominion, says who? You? Other humans? This is the mentality of the slave master.
1. The Bible
2. I haven't been able to get the to clean up the kitchen, so how am I a slave master?

DarkMerlin · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject:

Wolverine wrote: DarkMerlin wrote:
An elephant is "vastly more advanced" in certain ways than a shrew, but both are, like humans, still animals. In many ways other animals are more advanced then us; fish, for instance, are far better at living under water than humans are. First you need to define "advanced," but even then it is a quantitative distinction, not a qualitative one. Humans are animals any way you cut it.
Advanced being technology. with enough resources, people could live anywhere in the world. The expense being the greatest factor.

So what? There are many people on the planet without that technology or those resources. Are they not human because they aren't "advanced"? Actually, since resources include things like food, warmth, sunlight, energy, shelter, water, oxygen, etc., your claim that "with enough resources, people could live anywhere in the world" really applies to all animals, not just humans.

Quote: Quote: As for dominion, says who? You? Other humans? This is the mentality of the slave master.
1. The Bible
2. I haven't been able to get the to clean up the kitchen, so how am I a slave master?

1. The Bible was written by humans. Again, it is humans saying "we own non-humans." Not exactly an unbiased voice.
2. It is a matter of "ownership" that is important. Slave masters claim to "own" their slaves based on no authority but their own.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6939 Location: Ohio

Quote:
Not morally. What distinguishes humans from animals is that humans have reason as their faculty to survive while animals rely on instinct. Animals have zero moral significance so the obvious answer has to be humans are more important than animals. One drop of human blood is morally worth more than the life of every animal on the planet.

Nope. Humans still run on our base instricts (hunger is an instinct, as is the sex drive). While we retain far more rights than OTHER animals.

Quote: 1. The Bible

Well that's a piss poor arguement. 1) The bible is written by humans. 2) As a religious source that cannot be supported or proven, makes it unusable in a proper debate...That is, a debate where people use logic and reason rather than belief.

George W Bush · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject:

Humans are only "more advanced" because they think so.
You think animals could care about things like driving cars or watching tv?
the point is moot regarding advancement.
animals place no emphasis on what we call advanced. they dont have it in their system to compete with our 'advances'.
its more appropriate to say weve got a higher capacity for survival, which would be more debatable when you consider lions, bears, etc.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6939 Location: Ohio

Erm...no.

We survive far better than lions OR bears. Yes, nothing can directly kill them, but they also die if their prey can get away from them.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10973 Location: Podunk, Colorado

DarkMerlin wrote:
So what? There are many people on the planet without that technology or those resources. Are they not human because they aren't "advanced"? Actually, since resources include things like food, warmth, sunlight, energy, shelter, water, oxygen, etc., your claim that "with enough resources, people could live anywhere in the world" really applies to all animals, not just humans.
Biggest different being humans can produce resources, animals would have to depend on humans to do it for them.

Quote: 1. The Bible was written by humans. Again, it is humans saying "we own non-humans." Not exactly an unbiased voice.
I still believe it.

Quote: 2. It is a matter of "ownership" that is important. Slave masters claim to "own" their slaves based on no authority but their own.
When a dog can make educated decisions, then they may just be advanced. But for now, they cannot make educated decisions.
Show me a cat that can figure out
x-8=32 and thats very, very, a simple one.

Demonic Spoon wrote:
Well that's a piss poor arguement. 1) The bible is written by humans. 2) As a religious source that cannot be supported or proven, makes it unusable in a proper debate...That is, a debate where people use logic and reason rather than belief.
All arguments are based on religious or lack of religious values. Mine being, I will live my life being as moral as possible, but I don't give a d@mn if others live thier lives in a different way.

George W Bush wrote: Humans are only "more advanced" because they think so.
People are more advanced because we simply are. Show a dog that has made something as simple as a wheel.

Quote: You think animals could care about things like driving cars or watching tv?
the point is moot regarding advancement.
animals place no emphasis on what we call advanced.
Primitive being tend not to care about such things. Simply because they do not understand them.

Quote: they dont have it in their system to compete with our 'advances'.
its more appropriate to say weve got a higher capacity for survival, which would be more debatable when you consider lions, bears, etc.
With our current advancements people could live nearly anywhere in the world, the same cannot be said for animal.

micfranklin · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject:

I say both man and beast are important, and here's why. Humans are the dominant species on the planet, we have evolved from apes from over 3 million years ago and have developed all the technology you see in the modern world today. And plus, when need be, humans sometimes have to be the ones to save animals from total extinction...or sometimes cause its extinction.

As for the animals, humans are classified as animals in a certain sense. There are about a billion species of animals, and we are only one of them and humans need animals to survive as well. Meat comes from cows and pigs, eggs from birds, fish, etc. And plus, both man and beast are living, breathing organisms and so are plants.

DarkMerlin · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject:

Wolverine wrote: DarkMerlin wrote:
So what? There are many people on the planet without that technology or those resources. Are they not human because they aren't "advanced"? Actually, since resources include things like food, warmth, sunlight, energy, shelter, water, oxygen, etc., your claim that "with enough resources, people could live anywhere in the world" really applies to all animals, not just humans.
Biggest different being humans can produce resources, animals would have to depend on humans to do it for them.

Quote: 1. The Bible was written by humans. Again, it is humans saying "we own non-humans." Not exactly an unbiased voice.
I still believe it.

Quote: 2. It is a matter of "ownership" that is important. Slave masters claim to "own" their slaves based on no authority but their own.
When a dog can make educated decisions, then they may just be advanced. But for now, they cannot make educated decisions.
Show me a cat that can figure out
x-8=32 and thats very, very, a simple one.

Demonic Spoon wrote:
Well that's a piss poor arguement. 1) The bible is written by humans. 2) As a religious source that cannot be supported or proven, makes it unusable in a proper debate...That is, a debate where people use logic and reason rather than belief.
All arguments are based on religious or lack of religious values. Mine being, I will live my life being as moral as possible, but I don't give a d@mn if others live thier lives in a different way.

George W Bush wrote: Humans are only "more advanced" because they think so.
People are more advanced because we simply are. Show a dog that has made something as simple as a wheel.

Quote: You think animals could care about things like driving cars or watching tv?
the point is moot regarding advancement.
animals place no emphasis on what we call advanced.
Primitive being tend not to care about such things. Simply because they do not understand them.

Quote: they dont have it in their system to compete with our 'advances'.
its more appropriate to say weve got a higher capacity for survival, which would be more debatable when you consider lions, bears, etc.
With our current advancements people could live nearly anywhere in the world, the same cannot be said for animal.

The ammish don't care about driving cars or watching tv. Neither do Tibetan monks. Does that make them "primitive"?

Much of our ability to create and use technology comes not only from our proportionally larger frontal lobe, but from our opposable thumbs. Primates and even birds have been observed using tools to get at food and such. It is all a matter of degree, not of actually character. As I've said before, the differences between humans and other animals are quantitative, not quanitative.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

DarkMerlin wrote:
1. The Bible was written by humans. Again, it is humans saying "we own non-humans." Not exactly an unbiased voice.

When non-humans write a book , I'll consider their voice.....

Mehmet Ali Agca · Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 6

animals beleive that survival is important, even if they don't like stuff like we do, tv's cars, ect. So if survival is so important, they better stand up and communicate that with me somehow or else I'll take my whopper with no Mayo.

animals are there for my wants, needs and desires