Political Crossfire Forums

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5245 Location: Boston, MA

connermt wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: I think the fairer phrasing of the question would be, Do you believe in supernatural occurrance or not?

Since this phrasing does not really alienate or equate card tricks I do very well with inexplicable events that seem to be free of human causation and manipulation.

For those who do believe in supernatural occurances then miracles belong in a subset of those who happen to ascribe them to the First Cause or God, while others may have a different source.

I can see what you are saying. But the question doesn't have to be fair. The reason why I asked the question was because when something happens that's 'good' & show no evidence of human interation, it is called a miracle. WHen something 'good' happen where there SEEMS to be human intervention, it is called magic. Now then, many christian say magic is 'of the Devil'....(etc etc etc), but miracles are ok. Are not miracles 'God's magic'? Why or why not?

Other than David Copperfield or Houdini I don't know what other context "magic" would be exercised, unless we are talking about witchcraft of somekind. In that case "magic is of the devil" not because it exists or is a threat in and of itself but because it turns the practitioner away from God.

Give me an example of magic where human intervention is NOT assumed?

My point about the nature of the question is to point out that precisely what you are pointing out, one man's miracle is another man's "magic". In either case they share the belief on a base level in the supernatural, which the typical atheist or agnostic will deny.

And from a Christian theological stand point, God is incapable of any action other than good so it is logical for a Christian to believe anything evil has a different source.

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

Gilbert1908 wrote: connermt wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: I think the fairer phrasing of the question would be, Do you believe in supernatural occurrance or not?

Since this phrasing does not really alienate or equate card tricks I do very well with inexplicable events that seem to be free of human causation and manipulation.

For those who do believe in supernatural occurances then miracles belong in a subset of those who happen to ascribe them to the First Cause or God, while others may have a different source.

I can see what you are saying. But the question doesn't have to be fair. The reason why I asked the question was because when something happens that's 'good' & show no evidence of human interation, it is called a miracle. WHen something 'good' happen where there SEEMS to be human intervention, it is called magic. Now then, many christian say magic is 'of the Devil'....(etc etc etc), but miracles are ok. Are not miracles 'God's magic'? Why or why not?

Other than David Copperfield or Houdini I don't know what other context "magic" would be exercised, unless we are talking about witchcraft of somekind. In that case "magic is of the devil" not because it exists or is a threat in and of itself but because it turns the practitioner away from God.

Give me an example of magic where human intervention is NOT assumed?

My point about the nature of the question is to point out that precisely what you are pointing out, one man's miracle is another man's "magic". In either case they share the belief on a base level in the supernatural, which the typical atheist or agnostic will deny.

And from a Christian theological stand point, God is incapable of any action other than good so it is logical for a Christian to believe anything evil has a different source.

That is my thinking - it is all a matter of perspective. At least that is how I see it & was wondering how others saw it as well

always red · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 16 Location: South Carolina

feederband wrote: connermt wrote: What's the difference?
It seems to me that the difference is perception. If something supernatural happens that one can't attribute to God, then it's magic. If it is something that they can attribute to God, then it is a miracle.
What's the difference?

There are no miracles... Can anyone tell me of a miracle....

The choice is ultimatly yours: You can choose to see everything as a miracle, or you can choose to see nothing as a miracle. As far as I can tell, you have already made your choice. Your problem is that you are demanding evidence. But I would be willing to bet that you would laugh off any evidence given as absurd or coincidental. Jesus performed many miracles while he was on earth. He turned water into wine, he raised a child from the dead, he gave a blind man his sight, he cured a man of leperousy, he healed a quadroplegic.... But this doesn't help you I suppose because I am going to dare to presume that you don't believe in Christ anyway.
That is the problem with non-believers: They don't believe, but they want to argue with those who do believe. I suppose it is a two way street.

Off of that subject, here is question I would like to open to the floor:

Is it better to believe in something whole heartedly, letting that something give you a peace of mind, a reason for living, and a reason for loving, and then ultimately find out you were wrong? Or, is it better to live each day as if all there is to life is corruption, and underlying selfishness, where the future lies in the hand of those who corrupted the earth in the first place, and then ultimately find out that you were wrong?

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5245 Location: Boston, MA

always red wrote: feederband wrote: connermt wrote: What's the difference?
It seems to me that the difference is perception. If something supernatural happens that one can't attribute to God, then it's magic. If it is something that they can attribute to God, then it is a miracle.
What's the difference?

There are no miracles... Can anyone tell me of a miracle....

The choice is ultimatly yours: You can choose to see everything as a miracle, or you can choose to see nothing as a miracle. As far as I can tell, you have already made your choice. Your problem is that you are demanding evidence. But I would be willing to bet that you would laugh off any evidence given as absurd or coincidental. Jesus performed many miracles while he was on earth. He turned water into wine, he raised a child from the dead, he gave a blind man his sight, he cured a man of leperousy, he healed a quadroplegic.... But this doesn't help you I suppose because I am going to dare to presume that you don't believe in Christ anyway.
That is the problem with non-believers: They don't believe, but they want to argue with those who do believe. I suppose it is a two way street.

Off of that subject, here is question I would like to open to the floor:

Is it better to believe in something whole heartedly, letting that something give you a peace of mind, a reason for living, and a reason for loving, and then ultimately find out you were wrong? Or, is it better to live each day as if all there is to life is corruption, and underlying selfishness, where the future lies in the hand of those who corrupted the earth in the first place, and then ultimately find out that you were wrong?

Neither is correct and both are selfish, shallow and self deceptive.

It is best to seek and believe in the truth, to do your best to confront and deal with real life as it comes with as much joy and courage as you are capable of posessing. It is also critical to know that NOONE can live life without help and seek to understand when you need it and where best to find it.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Gilbert1908 wrote: connermt wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: I think the fairer phrasing of the question would be, Do you believe in supernatural occurrance or not?

Since this phrasing does not really alienate or equate card tricks I do very well with inexplicable events that seem to be free of human causation and manipulation.

For those who do believe in supernatural occurances then miracles belong in a subset of those who happen to ascribe them to the First Cause or God, while others may have a different source.

I can see what you are saying. But the question doesn't have to be fair. The reason why I asked the question was because when something happens that's 'good' & show no evidence of human interation, it is called a miracle. WHen something 'good' happen where there SEEMS to be human intervention, it is called magic. Now then, many christian say magic is 'of the Devil'....(etc etc etc), but miracles are ok. Are not miracles 'God's magic'? Why or why not?

Other than David Copperfield or Houdini I don't know what other context "magic" would be exercised, unless we are talking about witchcraft of somekind. In that case "magic is of the devil" not because it exists or is a threat in and of itself but because it turns the practitioner away from God.
You don't think that a 500-ton piece of metal taking to the sky and flying along at the speed of sound is "magic"?

Even 100 years ago, that's what people would have called it..

All *magic* (including the David Copperfield and Houdini variety) is nothing more than science and technology.. those who work "magic" simply know how to manipulate the Laws of Nature and shape and mold them to their own Will.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4138 Location: Florida

always red wrote: Is it better to believe in something whole heartedly, letting that something give you a peace of mind, a reason for living, and a reason for loving, and then ultimately find out you were wrong? Or, is it better to live each day as if all there is to life is corruption, and underlying selfishness, where the future lies in the hand of those who corrupted the earth in the first place, and then ultimately find out that you were wrong?

Well first we both may be wrong in the end...And I'm not going to live my life someway just because someone tells me their truth is the truth...My truth is just as powerful as your truth...The only difference is your brain allows you to believe this while my mind can't conceive of it...I have peace of mind, reason for living, reason for loving..Why do I need you god to do that....WHY...???