Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

This is probably my first post in the Abortion forum. I know I made a thread like this in the Gun Control forum, expressing my views on Gun Control (I oppose it). Now, as a libertarian and a Muslim, here are my views on Abortion:

I actually sit somewhere in the middle. However, I believe that abortion is a purely individual, not governmental, case in that the government has no right to interfere with the abortion carried out by the mother. On the individual basis, though, I oppose abortion to some degree. I'm not going to blurt right out and say that abortionists are murderers, but the act itself is a denial of the right of a fetus to life. On the other hand, I support abortion in cases when the mother is sick to the degree that she can not support the fetus, or sick to the degree that the fetus might kill her. Pertaining to one of the well-known Islamic scholars, Yusuf al Qardawi, here is a part of his fatwa:

Yusuf al Qardawi wrote: Muslim jurists have agreed unanimously that after the fetus is completely formed and has been given a soul, abortion is haram. It is also a crime, the commission of which is prohibited to the Muslim because it constitutes an offense against a complete, living human being. Jurists insist that the payment of blood money (diya) becomes incumbent if the baby is aborted alive and then died, while a fine of lesser amount is to be paid if it is aborted dead.

However, there is one exceptional situation. If, say the jurists, after the baby is completely formed, it is reliably shown that the continuation of the pregnancy would necessarily result in the death of the mother, then, in accordance with the general principle of the Shari`ah, that of choosing the lesser of two evils, abortion must be performed. The reason for this is that the mother is the origin of the fetus; moreover, her life is well-established, with duties and responsibilities, and she is also a pillar of the family. It would not be possible to sacrifice her life for the life of a fetus which has not yet acquired a personality and which has no responsibilities or obligations to fulfill.

I bolded the parts that are to be considered. Here is another interesting link I pulled up:

European Council for Fatwa and Research wrote: First of all, it is to be stated that Islam forbids abortion in all stages of pregnancy. When the pregnancy reaches 120 days old, abortion becomes totally forbidden and is deemed a form of murder that results in compensation becoming liable. If abortion is done prior to this period, no compensation is liable but one should ask forgiveness and promise never to commit it again. In addition, it is highly recommended to do much righteous deeds such as giving in charity, etc.

Note the pregnancy date. When the fetus is four months old, its form is not only more human-like, but this is generally the age where the fetus starts swimming in the womb of the mother (i.e. the baby is "alive"). In that case, abortion is permissible prior to the fouth month of pregnancy, as pertaining to the above rules.

However, if the mother is sick, has AIDS, has multiple embryos with some of them lacking full function (i.e. damaged), or has been raped, then an abortion is permissible. I agree with this 100%. On the other hand, as a religious person, I don't see anything good come out of people who abort their fetuses after four months.

Those are my views on abortion. As you can see, I sit somewhere in the middle. However, as I said before, I believe that abortion is an individual matter, and should have no government interference whatsoever. So, if you're planning an abortion that does not comply with my views, I'm not stopping you.

[steen]

Which makes you pro-choice. Regardless of your views on abortion, you want the woman to make the choice herself. I can live with that 8:)

[Plodder]

no it olnly make you scared.

[LostSoul3412]

How does respecting someone else's choice to their own body make one scared?

[Plodder]

if one belives in something to be inherently wrong but thinks that they should not infringe their views on others its called cowardice.

[LostSoul3412]

Plodder wrote: if one belives in something to be inherently wrong but thinks that they should not infringe their views on others its called cowardice.

There's a difference between expression and imposing. If you want to try and convince people to not have abortions, go ahead, that's your right. But if you want to make a law prohibiting people from having abortions, that's enforcement of subjective morals on an objective community.

[Plodder]

the govenrment imposes its morals by trruing people for their crimes every day.

[LostSoul3412]

Plodder wrote: the govenrment imposes its morals by trruing people for their crimes every day.

Correct, and that is why government is wrong.

Don't use other institutions to justify your claims, stand up for yourself.

[Plodder]

lol so yuore an anarchist? Quote: Correct, and that is why government is wrong.

Don't use other institutions to justify your claims, stand up for yourself. thats dumb. clearly you miss the point of government.

[LostSoul3412]

Plodder wrote: thats dumb. clearly you miss the point of government.

To me, the only reason to have an institutionalized government is for the protection of the people. Any government that imposes its own morals on the citizens is oppressive and totalitarian, because that government denies it people "Freedom of thought".

I think that you try to manipulate government to meet your agenda, which is a blatant disregard for the proper use of government. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what the "point of government" is?

And yes, I am an anarchist. 8:)

[Plodder]

the poiunt of govewrnment is to maintain order.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: To me, the only reason to have an institutionalized government is for the protection of the people Oh, so you are pro life then?

[Plodder]

he doent know what a person is...

[LostSoul3412]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Oh, so you are pro life then?

Nice try, but no. Protection of the people, not protection of the potential people.

[LostSoul3412]

Plodder wrote: he doent know what a person is...

Ah, but I do. Just because I do not agree with you does not make me wrong.

[Plodder]

Quote: potential people. you have no proof on this. you are making this up out of nowhere.mits such a dumb arugumet. you may have more sucess arguing that you can defy gravity.

[LostSoul3412]

Plodder wrote: Quote: potential people. you have no proof on this. you are making this up out of nowhere.mits such a dumb arugumet. you may have more sucess arguing that you can defy gravity.

Let me present my analogy for you again:

A seed is to a plant as an embryo is to a human.

Both are the potential to become the next, but are not already life.

As far as defying gravity...

Jump.

You have just defied gravity.

[AllAmericanMan]

Quote: A seed is to a plant as an embryo is to a human.

Wrong. A seed is to a plant as a sperm is to a human. Other than that, youre talking apples and oranges. Youre not even talking apples and oranges, youre talking apples and....people. When a new human being is conceived a process is set in motion. This process consists of 32 chromosomes from the male, and 32 chromosomes from the female. They come together to form a new individuals DNA. These genetic blueprints are unique making every person created from those blueprints unique. If the process of the newly growing life is ended, that life will cease. If the life is not ended, it will grow on its own with no further interference from the mother until it is ready to come out (hopefully). When does someone choose to give birth if not during sexual intercourse? Pro choice should not be a choice because it is ending the life on another human individual. Wether or not its outside of the oven, its a person. All people should be given a chance to experience life and try to make the best of what we who are born have screwed up so badly.

[LostSoul3412]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: A seed is to a plant as an embryo is to a human.

Wrong. A seed is to a plant as a sperm is to a human. Other than that, youre talking apples and oranges. Youre not even talking apples and oranges, youre talking apples and....people.

Actually, I would say that a seed is just the same to as plant as an embryo is to a human, because the genetic make-up of a plant is already embedded into the seed. The seed's DNA does not change when you add water, it only grows. Just as an embryo will grow within the mother's womb.

AllAmericanMan wrote: When a new human being is conceived a process is set in motion. This process consists of 32 chromosomes from the male, and 32 chromosomes from the female.

What of those born with more, or less, than 64 chromosomes?

AllAmericanMan wrote: They come together to form a new individuals DNA. These genetic blueprints are unique making every person created from those blueprints unique.

Just as the seed contains the DNA and the genetic make-up of the plant.

AllAmericanMan wrote: If the process of the newly growing life is ended, that life will cease. If the life is not ended, it will grow on its own with no further interference from the mother until it is ready to come out (hopefully).

Just like a seed. Pull it out of the ground, and it will not become a plant.

AllAmericanMan wrote: When does someone choose to give birth if not during sexual intercourse?

I'm assuming that you mean to say that someone chooses to have a child when that individual chooses to have sex, but correct me if I am wrong.

Many people have sex for many different reasons, often times for reasons other than reproduction. Beyond that, someone's sexual behavior, and sexual intentions, are none of your business.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Pro choice should not be a choice because it is ending the life on another human individual.

Correction: It could be ending the life of another potential human individual.

AllAmericanMan wrote: Wether or not its outside of the oven, its a person.

Then a seed is equivalent to a plant under your logic.

AllAmericanMan wrote: All people should be given a chance to experience life and try to make the best of what we who are born have screwed up so badly.

... You lost me here, could you please rephrase your point? I cannot understand what you are trying to say.

[steen]

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: A seed is to a plant as an embryo is to a human. Wrong. A seed is to a plant as a sperm is to a human. How utterly ignorant. The plant analogy to sperm is the pollen. Don't you know ANYTHING? Seeds are indeed the embryo. Good heavens. Why are pro-lifers always so incredibly ignorant of even basic science? Where you all home-schooled by fundie parents who didn't teach you any science because that was seen as "the Devil's work"?

Quote: Other than that, youre talking apples and oranges. Youre not even talking apples and oranges, youre talking apples and....people. When a new human being is conceived a process is set in motion. This process consists of 32 chromosomes from the male, and 32 chromosomes from the female. They come together to form a new individuals DNA. So a hydatidiform mole is an individual now? How silly.

Quote: These genetic blueprints are unique making every person created from those blueprints unique. If the process of the newly growing life is ended, that life will cease. And if you squash a fly, that individual life will end. And if you remove a tumor, then that individual life will end and if..... etc, with irrelevant and ignorant drivel.

Quote: If the life is not ended, it will grow on its own with no further interference from the mother until it is ready to come out (hopefully). So the woman withholding her bodily resources won't affect the embryo? More ignorant blabber.

Quote: When does someone choose to give birth if not during sexual intercourse? Well, there is always IVF. And. of course, many people have sex without wanting to give birth. So that's another irrelevant point.

Quote: Pro choice should not be a choice because it is ending the life on another human individual. No.

Quote: Wether or not its outside of the oven, its a person. No.

Quote: All people should be given a chance to experience life and try to make the best of what we who are born have screwed up so badly. And the embryo is not "people."