Political Crossfire Forums

[sLiPpY]

I was reading through another thread, and noticed an individual associating the concept of Wisdom = Man. Who is Sophia? She is Wisdom, because the Greek word Sophia translates into Wisdom. More than that, she is the Holy Spirit of Wisdom.

In fact, Sophia is found throughout the wisdom books of the Old Testament. There are many references to Her in the book of Proverbs. Sophia survives in the apocryphal books of Sirach and the Wisdom of Solomon, accepted by Catholics and Orthodox, found in the Greek Septuagint of the early Church.

1 Kings 4:29-31 tells us that God gave wisdom to Solomon, that he became wiser than all the kings of the East. Song of Songs, speaks of Solomon's marriage to Holy Sophia. She even instructed Solomon to build the Temple!

There was a time in history, when Jews revered Sophia. King Solomon even put Her right in the Temple, in the form of the Goddess Asherah. Even today, the Russian Orthodox include Sophia and her three daughters, as an element to the Godhead.

Granted the concept seems rather diluted today, however survives in discussions as to the nature of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Wisdom is a gift from God...specifically the auspices of Sophia. It is not a convention of man, unless one believes that man made the whole story up in the first place. Or chooses to ignore, the early tenants of Judaism and Christianity.

[cap'n queasy]

It's kind of misleading to represent the Greek word for wisdom as a name for some goddess in the holy book of a monotheistic religion.

And so, the great falling away begins. There's even a major motion picture coming out based on this theme.

I think your prayers will be answered sooner than you ever thought possible in your wildest dreams.

Praise the Lord!

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of misleading to represent the Greek word for wisdom as a name for some goddess in the holy book of a monotheistic religion.
On more time, from the top, just the shatter the common myth + misconception that monotheism did not exist in ancient Greece and Rome, let's have a look at what Cicero had to say about God:

Quote: The true law, is right reason, conformable to the nature of things, constant, eternal, diffused through all, which calls us to duty by commanding, deters us from sin by forbidding; which never loses its influence with the good, nor ever preserves it with the wicked. This law cannot be over- ruled by any other, nor abrogated in whole or in part; nor can we be absolved from it either by the senate or by the people; nor are we to seek any other comment or interpreter of it but himself; nor can there be one law at Rome and another at Athens; one now and another hereafter; but the same eternal immutable law comprehends all nations at all times, under one common master and governor of all -- GOD. He is the inventor, propounder, enactor of this law; and whoever will not obey it must first renounce himself, and throw off the nature of man; by doing which, he will suffer the greatest punishments though he should escape all the other torments which are commonly believed to be prepared for the wicked.'

-- Cicero

The ancient Greeks and Romans had a far more solid grasp on "monotheism" than any of today's so-called "Christians" do..

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The ancient Greeks and Romans had a far more solid grasp on "monotheism" than any of today's so-called "Christians" do..



By thinking their emperor was God?

You will live to see the foolishness of your words, which you call wisdom.

Counted, weighed, divided.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The ancient Greeks and Romans had a far more solid grasp on "monotheism" than any of today's so-called "Christians" do..



By thinking their emperor was God?
You think every last Greek and/or Roman believed that their emporer was God? You think anything more than a very vocal minority (not unlike today's Zionist Christians?) believed anything that absurd?

People back then weren't quite as stupid as you seem to think they were .. in fact, in many respects, they were far more intelligent than many of today's "Christians"..

Quote: You will live to see the foolishness of your words, which you call wisdom.
It's coming from Cicero's mouth, my friend.

Did you read it yet?

[sLiPpY]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of misleading to represent the Greek word for wisdom as a name for some goddess in the holy book of a monotheistic religion.

And so, the great falling away begins. There's even a major motion picture coming out based on this theme.

I think your prayers will be answered sooner than you ever thought possible in your wildest dreams.

Praise the Lord!

So I take it, you might not perceive the correlation between the Achamoth, the Chokmah, and Sophia? Would Hagia Sophia, ring a bell? :?

Granted the word Philosophy, first used by Pythagoras, means "lover of Sophia." For the earliest Christians Sophia represented the Divine feminine. Where Christos would have been the divine masculine.

Once patriarchy infected the Christian church, the Sophia tradition was lost, but not entirely. Passages in the Hebrew Bible or New Testament, indeed use "wisdom" which refers to the lost Sophia tradition.

Logos, the "word" of God is in the Greek masculine form of Sophia.

Take a look at John 1:1-3, granted it's the Gospel I like least.

"In the beginning was logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God. She was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through her, and without her not one thing came into being."

Is "Logos" a Goddess? and is Sophia misleading? I think not.

Greek philosophy saw Sophia as the creative power that formed the cosmos out of original chaos. The New Testament couldn't have possibly been written without an understanding of Hellenistic cultural and linguistic nuances. Hebrew biblical tradition, sees Wisdom as Sophia and Sophia as Yahweh's companion in creation.

Now read through Proverbs 8: 22-31, is Sophia not Yahweh's intimate companion in creating the world? Does Sophia not serve as God's channel of communication with humanity? Is it not logical to assume, these older concepts eventually evolved into the "Holy Spirit" idea of patriarchy?

In Genesis 1:3, would not "The Word" be equivalent to Sophia, Wisdom, and the creative force of God?

Even 1st Corinthians 2:6-16, harks back to the older oral traditions. Saying that the Wisdom of God is only revealed through the Spirit of God. Is she who was with God at the beginning, not lost...?

I personally think it's a damn shame, the patriarchal Roman Church eradicated Sophia. Being original Christians valued men and women equally as expressions of God and the Goddess...later Christians wouldn't even allow women to vote.

Granted I'm not a Christian, but it seems to me that less Sophia, a complete Christ consciousness would evade Christian believers. i.e. Half of what the man said and did, is lost without the context of that perception.

yo psholtz? how' teh' novice do? :lol:

[Clara Listensprechen]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of misleading to represent the Greek word for wisdom as a name for some goddess in the holy book of a monotheistic religion.


So is the inclusion of pagan satyrs, but they're in The Bible too. Recall that Jesus said that while it's forgivable to blaspheme God or himself, it's unforgivable to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Don't go demanding the exact scripture citation because

1) I already cited this one to you in another discussion, and
2) I should be able to assume that you've actually read the book you claim to believe in.

[garyd]

To be sure numerous pagan beliefs are mentioned in the Bible and Condemned And Solomons tendency to place the various gods and goddesses of his Pagan wives and concubines in proximity to the Temple is often condemned as well..

[cap'n queasy]

There is no "the" chokma.

Chokma, like sophia in the Greek, is simply the Hebrew word for wisdom.

This conversation is puerile.

What, exactly, are you guys attempting to prove?

[Clara Listensprechen]

garyd wrote: To be sure numerous pagan beliefs are mentioned in the Bible and Condemned And Solomons tendency to place the various gods and goddesses of his Pagan wives and concubines in proximity to the Temple is often condemned as well..

Um, when Jesus called him great and refered to himself as greater than Solomon, that 'un didn't come off as a condemnation. Sorry--try again.

[psholtz]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: garyd wrote: To be sure numerous pagan beliefs are mentioned in the Bible and Condemned And Solomons tendency to place the various gods and goddesses of his Pagan wives and concubines in proximity to the Temple is often condemned as well..

Um, when Jesus called him great and refered to himself as greater than Solomon, that 'un didn't come off as a condemnation. Sorry--try again.
Perhaps not, but Solomon's actions were condemned by Ezra, or whoever wrote the Book of Kings..

I think that was the point.. :?

[psholtz]

sLiPpY wrote: I personally think it's a damn shame, the patriarchal Roman Church eradicated Sophia. Being original Christians valued men and women equally as expressions of God and the Goddess...later Christians wouldn't even allow women to vote.
But the RCC kept the Virgin Mary around, and made her the focus of many of their rites and traditions .. something which I believe has almost single-handedly contributed to the *extreme* longevity of the RCC..

The RCC, viz Mary, is probably a little more "matriarchical" (at least in its "philosophy" and traditions) than it might appear to be to outsiders.. :wink:

[Clara Listensprechen]

psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: garyd wrote: To be sure numerous pagan beliefs are mentioned in the Bible and Condemned And Solomons tendency to place the various gods and goddesses of his Pagan wives and concubines in proximity to the Temple is often condemned as well..

Um, when Jesus called him great and refered to himself as greater than Solomon, that 'un didn't come off as a condemnation. Sorry--try again.
Perhaps not, but Solomon's actions were condemned by Ezra, or whoever wrote the Book of Kings..

I think that was the point.. :?

So Jesus contradicts Ezra. Making note of that in my Contradictions list.

[cap'n queasy]

Paul, I hope you are getting a sense of what it is like to talk to you.

:lol:

[psholtz]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: garyd wrote: To be sure numerous pagan beliefs are mentioned in the Bible and Condemned And Solomons tendency to place the various gods and goddesses of his Pagan wives and concubines in proximity to the Temple is often condemned as well..

Um, when Jesus called him great and refered to himself as greater than Solomon, that 'un didn't come off as a condemnation. Sorry--try again.
Perhaps not, but Solomon's actions were condemned by Ezra, or whoever wrote the Book of Kings..

I think that was the point.. :?

So Jesus contradicts Ezra. Making note of that in my Contradictions list.
It's not really a contradiction.. Jesus never said Solomon was *perfect*..

But yes, the Bible does contradict itself in many places (especially inbetween the Old and New Testaments). If that fact represents some sort of newflash for you, I suppose that's more a commentary on your own state of ignorance than anything else..

Certainly the rest of us have figured this out a long, long time ago.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Paul, I hope you are getting a sense of what it is like to talk to you.

:lol:
:lol:

Yes and no.. :-D

[Clara Listensprechen]

psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: garyd wrote: To be sure numerous pagan beliefs are mentioned in the Bible and Condemned And Solomons tendency to place the various gods and goddesses of his Pagan wives and concubines in proximity to the Temple is often condemned as well..

Um, when Jesus called him great and refered to himself as greater than Solomon, that 'un didn't come off as a condemnation. Sorry--try again.
Perhaps not, but Solomon's actions were condemned by Ezra, or whoever wrote the Book of Kings..

I think that was the point.. :?

So Jesus contradicts Ezra. Making note of that in my Contradictions list.
It's not really a contradiction.. Jesus never said Solomon was *perfect*..



The claim was that Solomon was censured for his conduct, and Jesus calls him great without any such censure. And then calls himself greater than Solomon. Try again.

Quote: But yes, the Bible does contradict itself in many places (especially inbetween the Old and New Testaments). If that fact represents some sort of newflash for you, I suppose that's more a commentary on your own state of ignorance than anything else..

Certainly the rest of us have figured this out a long, long time ago.
Literalists who believe that The Bible is the Inerrant Word of God which contains no errors aren't aware of your proclamation. Try again.

[psholtz]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: garyd wrote: To be sure numerous pagan beliefs are mentioned in the Bible and Condemned And Solomons tendency to place the various gods and goddesses of his Pagan wives and concubines in proximity to the Temple is often condemned as well..

Um, when Jesus called him great and refered to himself as greater than Solomon, that 'un didn't come off as a condemnation. Sorry--try again.
Perhaps not, but Solomon's actions were condemned by Ezra, or whoever wrote the Book of Kings..

I think that was the point.. :?

So Jesus contradicts Ezra. Making note of that in my Contradictions list.
It's not really a contradiction.. Jesus never said Solomon was *perfect*..



The claim was that Solomon was censured for his conduct, and Jesus calls him great without any such censure. And then calls himself greater than Solomon.
Jesus also taught that he did not come to Earth so as to censure. This is a very, very common theme in his ministry.

Quote: Quote: But yes, the Bible does contradict itself in many places (especially inbetween the Old and New Testaments). If that fact represents some sort of newflash for you, I suppose that's more a commentary on your own state of ignorance than anything else..

Certainly the rest of us have figured this out a long, long time ago.
Literalists who believe that The Bible is the Inerrant Word of God which contains no errors aren't aware of your proclamation.
I'm aware of that, but (a) they are wrong; and (b) that's their problem isn't it? Not yours and not mine.

[Clara Listensprechen]

Heh. An error-filled Word of God means God's not all that followable as a moral example or anything else.

[psholtz]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: Heh. An error-filled Word of God means God's not all that followable as a moral example or anything else.
The Bible is not the Word of God.

Deal w/ it.