Political Crossfire Forums

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24188

Clara Listensprechen wrote: A great example of what I mean about you thinking that God needs you as an interpreter:

John wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: What part of "GOD sends them a powerful delusion" do you not understand? Looks like you're making the claim that Man = God.

Again..you're misunderstanding is caused by a lack of understanding context.

What is being spoken of here is a falling away in "Christian" circles. In this context, the apostle speaks about a coming apostasy in the churches that claim to be Christian but take pleasure in unrighteousness, instead of having a love for the truth. We see this today in churches that claim to be Christian but accept sinful lifestyles as being normal. They take pleasure in their unrighteousness, some even make commercials advertising and bragging about it. Yes, if you resist the will of God and reject the calling of the Holy Spirit in your life...you will be lost over to strong delusions. These people are convinced that what they are doing is right. It is a dangerous thing to knowingly and persistently resist divine Truth, because there will come a point where you can't help but believe the lie.

You're clearly a graduate of the Aquinas School of Rationalizations R Us and in need of Remedial English 101. Your explanation does NOT match what was said in plain English. Me, I understand English just fine without your interference, thank you very much.

Really? Tell me what does it say?

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,

17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

Already did. Re-read because I'm not in the habit of repeating myself.

Your allegation of complexity is back'ards.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: Congratulations on being the first believer I ever ran into who tells people not to read the book.
There exist Scriptures which are inappropriate for people who lack the proper spiritual foundations to be reading.

The Pauline Epistles are written in such a way that they are open to extremely easy misinterpretation(s). The more you know about the Gospels, the less likely you are to misinterpret the Pauline Epistles.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: Congratulations on being the first believer I ever ran into who tells people not to read the book.
There exist Scriptures which are inappropriate for people who lack the proper spiritual foundations to be reading.

You mean like these?
Quote: I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that.
2 Corinthians 11:1
Quote: If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
2 Corinthians 5:13
Quote: Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this) I am more.
2 Corinthians 11:23
Quote: I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it.
2 Corinthians 12:11

Quote:
The Pauline Epistles are written in such a way that they are open to extremely easy misinterpretation(s). The more you know about the Gospels, the less likely you are to misinterpret the Pauline Epistles.

So tell me about Paul's 3 heavens instead of squirming out of it.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: Already did. Re-read because I'm not in the habit of repeating myself.
Could have fooled me..

This is about the fifth or sixth time you've repeated yourself on this thread, telling me that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

That said, all you've done is say that the Epistles were written before the Gospels. True enough, but that says nothing about the relative complexity of the two sets of documents.

Quote: Your allegation of complexity is back'ards.
Perhaps to a simpleton, it might appear that way.

Nevertheless, I have a feeling that everyone from Jeremy Bentham to Thomas Jefferson would probably agree w/ me.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: Already did. Re-read because I'm not in the habit of repeating myself.
Could have fooled me..

Paul did. It's a piece o cake.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

Jesus said that children could understand. Quit whining about simpletons, quit calling me names, then stand and deliver.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: Congratulations on being the first believer I ever ran into who tells people not to read the book.
There exist Scriptures which are inappropriate for people who lack the proper spiritual foundations to be reading.

You mean like these?
Quote: I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that.
2 Corinthians 11:1
Quote: If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
2 Corinthians 5:13
Quote: Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this) I am more.
2 Corinthians 11:23
Quote: I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it.
2 Corinthians 12:11
Yes, believe it or not, these are very good examples of verses which should not be read by a spiritual idiot. They, and the context they are given in, are open to extremely easy misinterpretation by those who flaunt and ignore God's Divine Law.

Quote: Quote:
The Pauline Epistles are written in such a way that they are open to extremely easy misinterpretation(s). The more you know about the Gospels, the less likely you are to misinterpret the Pauline Epistles.

So tell me about Paul's 3 heavens instead of squirming out of it.
Check your Hebrew Concordance.

The word in question ("heaven(s)") is rendered in Hebrew as "shamayim", a word which is most honestly translated into English as "fiery waters".. Note the use of the plural "waters" here. Not one water, but many waters. There are verses (such as Gen 1:2, "the Spirit of the Elohim moved across the surface of the waters") where this concept is rendered into English a little more honestly than in other places.

Still, crappy Hebrew-to-English translations are no excuse for ignorance.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: Jesus said that children could understand. Quit whining about simpletons, quit calling me names, then stand and deliver.
That would be in the Gospels now wouldn't it?

Not in the Epistles..

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

There is no context to legitimize any of it, not even the context given. Same is true of Saul/Paul conjuring up Satan and contradicting Jesus. No context legitimizes hiring Satan for anything, nevermind what Paul hired him to do.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: Jesus said that children could understand. Quit whining about simpletons, quit calling me names, then stand and deliver.
That would be in the Gospels now wouldn't it?

Not in the Epistles..

My, how you grasp at such mere straws... :lol:

"Spiritual idiots", huh. Desperate, desperate, desperate.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24188

Clara Listensprechen wrote: Jesus said that children could understand. Quit whining about simpletons, quit calling me names, then stand and deliver.

What was it that Jesus spoke of, that children could understand?

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

You claim to have read the book. You tell me.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24188

Clara Listensprechen wrote: There is no context to legitimize any of it, not even the context given. Same is true of Saul/Paul conjuring up Satan and contradicting Jesus. No context legitimizes hiring Satan for anything, nevermind what Paul hired him to do.

Do you really believe that Satan would witness that Jesus is God and our Savior?

And just who are you and what do you believe?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24188

Clara Listensprechen wrote: You claim to have read the book. You tell me.

I'm not the one making the claim. You are. What exactly is it that Jesus taught that a child could understand?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24188

You see...it isn't understanding that children are know for having. It's trust and submission.

Maybe you should re read what Jesus said.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: Jesus said that children could understand. Quit whining about simpletons, quit calling me names, then stand and deliver.
That would be in the Gospels now wouldn't it?

Not in the Epistles..

My, how you grasp at such mere straws...
No, it's not grasping at straws.. In fact, it's the sum and total of the whole point I'm trying to make, a point which you yourself have proven for me quite nicely.

The Gospels are *far* simpler than the Epistles are. The Gospels *can* be comprehended by a mere child. Unfotunately, many adults there are who don't even have a child's grasp on the Gospels, and then these very same adults run around, quoting out of the Epistles they don't understand, quoting St. Paul over Jesus, and causing no small amount of chaos in the process.

These people are like little children who rush off to get the dessert before they've had the main course.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

John wrote: You see...it isn't understanding that children are know for having. It's trust and submission.

Maybe you should re read what Jesus said.
:lol: If you read the book, you should know exactly where to find it because you read the book.

You admit now that you haven't?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

:lol:

Quite humorous.

And BTW there is no credible scholar who claims that the Epistles predate the Gospels. With the exception of John which was written around 90 AD. Paul directly quotes from them in his epistles. On the other hand, no apocryphal work is ever referenced or quoted in the epistles.

The New Testament was completed in it's modern form before 100 AD.

You folks have a lot to learn about scholarship.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: Jesus said that children could understand. Quit whining about simpletons, quit calling me names, then stand and deliver.
That would be in the Gospels now wouldn't it?

Not in the Epistles..

My, how you grasp at such mere straws...
No, it's not grasping at straws.. In fact, it's the sum and total of the whole point I'm trying to make, a point which you yourself have proven for me quite nicely.

Which is that you're grasping at straws because you don't have command of the facts. When desperate for facts, the desperate turn to namecalling. Everybody knows that.