Political Crossfire Forums

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24185

John wrote: Colossians 1

13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

What exactly do you think is meant here, when it says that Jesus is the "image of the invisible God"?

And what could possibly be the meaning of the statement that "in Him all things hold together"?

So...again I ask...

What exactly do you think is meant here, when it says that Jesus is the "image of the invisible God"?

And what could possibly be the meaning of the statement that "in Him all things hold together"?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24185

People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.

Do you not agree that these passages help explain the concept of the trinity?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

I do.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: You don't care much for law at all. Because all law, not just Jewish law, makes one concious of sin and you don't want to see that you are a sinner too.

It irritates your elite sensitivities.

man=law
man=wisdom
man=works

God =salvation

2+2+2=6 every time. You need 7.

How are you gonna get it?

Savvy?
The Law comes from God, quesy.. not man..

I thought you didn't think much of Mosaic law?

Or are you saying the American penal code comes from God?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: You don't care much for law at all. Because all law, not just Jewish law, makes one concious of sin and you don't want to see that you are a sinner too.

It irritates your elite sensitivities.

man=law
man=wisdom
man=works

God =salvation

2+2+2=6 every time. You need 7.

How are you gonna get it?

Savvy?
The Law comes from God, quesy.. not man..

I thought you didn't think much of Mosaic law?
I have no problems w/ the Ten Commandments..

What I do have a problem w/ is when the rabbis all sit down together, crack open the Talmud, and start dreaming up brand new "laws" out of thin air so as to extend and solidify their secular political control, first over the Jews and then over everyone else, all in the "name" of "God"..

The "Noahide" Laws come to mind, for instance.

Nor is this technique limited to the Jews (obviously).. the Catholics did it for centuries.. the Protestant Reformation put an end to it (thankfully), but not before lots and lots of people died in the process.

Quote: Or are you saying the American penal code comes from God?
I don't think the American penal code is the "Law" that I was referring to..

Do you?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.
I believe that Colossains is the "inspired" word of God (so to speak). It's one of my more favorite Epistles, actually.

I also believe that no man has any business reading any of the Pauline Epistles until he has at least a first-grade grasp on the Gospels to begin w/.. The Pauline Epistles are much more advanced (spiritual) material than what's in the Gospels, and unless you understand the Gospels first, the Epistles will probably make little sense to you.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

psholtz wrote: John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.
I believe that Colossains is the "inspired" word of God (so to speak). It's one of my more favorite Epistles, actually.

I also believe that no man has any business reading any of the Pauline Epistles until he has at least a first-grade grasp on the Gospels to begin w/.. The Pauline Epistles are much more advanced (spiritual) material than what's in the Gospels, and unless you understand the Gospels first, the Epistles will probably make little sense to you.

Sorry, but the Epistles were written before the Gospels were, and 2 of those Gospels were written by Paul's buddies (Luke and Mark).

If you're so bright on the subject of Paul, then explain why it is that evangelicals talk about only one heaven while Paul believed there were at least 3 of 'em---and then tell us where the scripture is that describes the other two.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.

Do you not agree that these passages help explain the concept of the trinity?

The forum is to discuss Christianity and Christianity is what all are welcome to discuss. Last time I looked, this was a public board, not your private forum. Not only that, but "preaching to the choir" isn't really a discussion.

Colossians was written by Saul/Paul whose only alleged meet-up with Jesus was all in his head. His conjuring of Satan to be a teacher also is sufficient discredit to any claimed heavenly credentials as does his contradicting Jesus not just on the matter of expelling demons but on a number of other matters as well. He's a poser who doesn't deserve to be believed.

The part of Colossians that you quote makes Jesus = God and there is no third party to that. There is only one party and two names. There's no second party, there's no third. Your claim also doesn't square with Matthew 12:32.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24185

Clara Listensprechen wrote: John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.

Do you not agree that these passages help explain the concept of the trinity?

The forum is to discuss Christianity and Christianity is what all are welcome to discuss. Last time I looked, this was a public board, not your private forum. Not only that, but "preaching to the choir" isn't really a discussion.

Colossians was written by Saul/Paul whose only alleged meet-up with Jesus was all in his head. His conjuring of Satan to be a teacher also is sufficient discredit to any claimed heavenly credentials as does his contradicting Jesus not just on the matter of expelling demons but on a number of other matters as well. He's a poser who doesn't deserve to be believed.

A lot of people who believe in the authority of the New Testament don't really understand who Jesus really is.

You can post your opinion. I can't and wouldn't stop you. But what's the point...if you don't believe them to begin with?

The only people who think that Paul is contradicting anything Jesus said....plainly don't understand what Jesus said.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

John wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.

Do you not agree that these passages help explain the concept of the trinity?

The forum is to discuss Christianity and Christianity is what all are welcome to discuss. Last time I looked, this was a public board, not your private forum. Not only that, but "preaching to the choir" isn't really a discussion.

Colossians was written by Saul/Paul whose only alleged meet-up with Jesus was all in his head. His conjuring of Satan to be a teacher also is sufficient discredit to any claimed heavenly credentials as does his contradicting Jesus not just on the matter of expelling demons but on a number of other matters as well. He's a poser who doesn't deserve to be believed.

A lot of people who believe in the authority of the New Testament don't really understand who Jesus really is.

You can post your opinion. I can't and wouldn't stop you. But what's the point...if you don't believe them to begin with?

The only people who think that Paul is contradicting anything Jesus said....plainly don't understand what Jesus said.

Or what Saul/Paul said. Your insistance that God needs YOUR interpreting doesn't say much about how almighty God is for you claim he is without the power to speak plainly without your (or any other people's) help.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24185

Quote: The part of Colossians that you quote makes Jesus = God and there is no third party to that. There is only one party and two names. There's no second party, there's no third.

Jesus does equal God.

You need to read the beginning of the chapter..

Colossians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

5because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel

6which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth;

7 just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf,

8 and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24185

Clara Listensprechen wrote: John wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.

Do you not agree that these passages help explain the concept of the trinity?

The forum is to discuss Christianity and Christianity is what all are welcome to discuss. Last time I looked, this was a public board, not your private forum. Not only that, but "preaching to the choir" isn't really a discussion.

Colossians was written by Saul/Paul whose only alleged meet-up with Jesus was all in his head. His conjuring of Satan to be a teacher also is sufficient discredit to any claimed heavenly credentials as does his contradicting Jesus not just on the matter of expelling demons but on a number of other matters as well. He's a poser who doesn't deserve to be believed.

A lot of people who believe in the authority of the New Testament don't really understand who Jesus really is.

You can post your opinion. I can't and wouldn't stop you. But what's the point...if you don't believe them to begin with?

The only people who think that Paul is contradicting anything Jesus said....plainly don't understand what Jesus said.

Or what Saul/Paul said. Your insistance that God needs YOUR interpreting doesn't say much about how almighty God is for you claim he is without the power to speak plainly without your (or any other people's) help.

You didn't seem to have any problem understanding what it cleary says. Your answer is to attack the messenger.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.
I believe that Colossains is the "inspired" word of God (so to speak). It's one of my more favorite Epistles, actually.

I also believe that no man has any business reading any of the Pauline Epistles until he has at least a first-grade grasp on the Gospels to begin w/.. The Pauline Epistles are much more advanced (spiritual) material than what's in the Gospels, and unless you understand the Gospels first, the Epistles will probably make little sense to you.

Sorry, but the Epistles were written before the Gospels were, and 2 of those Gospels were written by Paul's buddies (Luke and Mark).
I never said that the Gospels predate the Epistles..

I did say that the Gospels are conceptually simpler than the Epistles..

Quote: If you're so bright on the subject of Paul, then explain why it is that evangelicals talk about only one heaven while Paul believed there were at least 3 of 'em---and then tell us where the scripture is that describes the other two.
I believe that in the St. Paul reference your referring to, St. Paul goes on to tell us that it's unlawful to speak any further on this subject than what he has already said.

Following that tradition, I'll just have to keep my silence.. :-D

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

A great example of what I mean about you thinking that God needs you as an interpreter:

John wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: What part of "GOD sends them a powerful delusion" do you not understand? Looks like you're making the claim that Man = God.

Again..you're misunderstanding is caused by a lack of understanding context.

What is being spoken of here is a falling away in "Christian" circles. In this context, the apostle speaks about a coming apostasy in the churches that claim to be Christian but take pleasure in unrighteousness, instead of having a love for the truth. We see this today in churches that claim to be Christian but accept sinful lifestyles as being normal. They take pleasure in their unrighteousness, some even make commercials advertising and bragging about it. Yes, if you resist the will of God and reject the calling of the Holy Spirit in your life...you will be lost over to strong delusions. These people are convinced that what they are doing is right. It is a dangerous thing to knowingly and persistently resist divine Truth, because there will come a point where you can't help but believe the lie.

You're clearly a graduate of the Aquinas School of Rationalizations R Us and in need of Remedial English 101. Your explanation does NOT match what was said in plain English. Me, I understand English just fine without your interference, thank you very much.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.
I believe that Colossains is the "inspired" word of God (so to speak). It's one of my more favorite Epistles, actually.

I also believe that no man has any business reading any of the Pauline Epistles until he has at least a first-grade grasp on the Gospels to begin w/.. The Pauline Epistles are much more advanced (spiritual) material than what's in the Gospels, and unless you understand the Gospels first, the Epistles will probably make little sense to you.

Sorry, but the Epistles were written before the Gospels were, and 2 of those Gospels were written by Paul's buddies (Luke and Mark).
I never said that the Gospels predate the Epistles..

I did say that the Gospels are conceptually simpler than the Epistles..

That's what makes your statement a non sequitur.
Quote:
Quote: If you're so bright on the subject of Paul, then explain why it is that evangelicals talk about only one heaven while Paul believed there were at least 3 of 'em---and then tell us where the scripture is that describes the other two.
I believe that in the St. Paul reference your referring to, St. Paul goes on to tell us that it's unlawful to speak any further on this subject than what he has already said.

Following that tradition, I'll just have to keep my silence.. :-D

I know an excuse when I see it. You really can't, can you. As it happens, he's already spoken plenty about it. Paul believes in 10 heavens, the topmost of which is ruled by an Egyptian god. You see, I've read an epistle of his that the Roman emperor threw out as heretical: The Apocalypse of Paul.

I can quote Paul, and it looks like you refuse to.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: I know an excuse when I see it. You really can't, can you.
No I can't..

Nor can you.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24185

Quote: f you're so bright on the subject of Paul, then explain why it is that evangelicals talk about only one heaven while Paul believed there were at least 3 of 'em---and then tell us where the scripture is that describes the other two.

3 heavens are consistent throughout the Bible. The Sky, outer space and the dimension where God abides are all referenced as “Heaven”.

The third Heaven is obviously the place where God abides.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.
I believe that Colossains is the "inspired" word of God (so to speak). It's one of my more favorite Epistles, actually.

I also believe that no man has any business reading any of the Pauline Epistles until he has at least a first-grade grasp on the Gospels to begin w/.. The Pauline Epistles are much more advanced (spiritual) material than what's in the Gospels, and unless you understand the Gospels first, the Epistles will probably make little sense to you.

Sorry, but the Epistles were written before the Gospels were, and 2 of those Gospels were written by Paul's buddies (Luke and Mark).
I never said that the Gospels predate the Epistles..

I did say that the Gospels are conceptually simpler than the Epistles..

That's what makes your statement a non sequitur.
The statement stands as I gave it.

If you don't understand the Gospels, you have no business reading the Pauline Epistles.

Clara Listensprechen · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 332

psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: Clara Listensprechen wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: People that don't believe it's the inspired word of God written in Colossians need not respond. My question is to those who have accepted these scriptures as truth.
I believe that Colossains is the "inspired" word of God (so to speak). It's one of my more favorite Epistles, actually.

I also believe that no man has any business reading any of the Pauline Epistles until he has at least a first-grade grasp on the Gospels to begin w/.. The Pauline Epistles are much more advanced (spiritual) material than what's in the Gospels, and unless you understand the Gospels first, the Epistles will probably make little sense to you.

Sorry, but the Epistles were written before the Gospels were, and 2 of those Gospels were written by Paul's buddies (Luke and Mark).
I never said that the Gospels predate the Epistles..

I did say that the Gospels are conceptually simpler than the Epistles..

That's what makes your statement a non sequitur.
The statement stands as I gave it.

If you don't understand the Gospels, you have no business reading the Pauline Epistles.

It stands as a non sequitur.

Congratulations on being the first believer I ever ran into who tells people not to read the book.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Clara Listensprechen wrote: Quote: The statement stands as I gave it.

If you don't understand the Gospels, you have no business reading the Pauline Epistles.

It stands as a non sequitur.
If that's true, you're going to have to explain your own line of "logical" reasoning.. (fancy Latin expressions notwithstanding).

Otherwise, it is you who (obviously) is non sequitur.