Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16371 Location: On Earth

Yeah, you heard the title right. I know it sounds rough, but prepare yourselves for a rant (never had one in a long time, so take it easy on me)...

I'm a religious person. I pray five times a day and read the Koran, and I have a strong conviction towards my religion and my beliefs. I'm proud that I'm a Muslim, and that I believe in One God, who bears no partners and is no part of a Trinity or some pantheon of gods. I'm also happy that I ain't no athiest, and I'd rather not revert to being one. Plus, I'm intra-conservative and am rather humble when it comes to matters like women, abortion, and other social matters.

That sounded a bit too arrogant, didn't it? Maybe a bit intolerant? Yeah, I know what you're thinking: I'm just another religious nut here to proselytize you that if you don't believe in God, you'll go to Hell for eternity or until all your sins are purged. Better yet, you might have thought that I am here to tell you that you should all convert you all to Islam, or let you live under Islamic rule and pay the poll tax. Freaky, eh? Yes, I know, I know: there are a lot of people like that in this world, and you just can't stand them. You probably thought that you would never even stand one minute with me right next to you, even if you were a Muslim who did not conform to Islam properly.

Well, thank God, I am not like that. I've noticed a lot of people here, though, that are, especially when it comes to matters like telling others that if they don't accept Jesus, they will burn for all eternity, or that it's better that you don't believe in God at all... and you know what irks me? They go around enforcing their beliefs on others and at the same time denigrate and degrade your beliefs!!! I especially hate it when people go around like this and force people to convert or persist in their preaching.

Even if there was a single predominant faith in the past, let's face it: this world is full of people, full of beliefs, full of religions, full of races, full of colors, full of everything... and no, I don't mean full of "it"... well, sometimes. And one has to face this belief found in almost all religions: destiny is something no one can control. You can proselytize someone for weeks on end, but he won't convert if destiny does not dictate that he will. Granted, it's alright to preach, but sometimes people go over the edge, especially when they bring arrogance and pompousness into the equation. I notice that a lot around here, but to all you religious folk, ask yourselves: isn't arrogance a sin? Isn't pompousness a sin as well? Did not God teach us to be ever so humble when it comes to religious matters, even when in front of others who do not share our faith? I'm pretty sure you would answer yes...

Then why the hell are you proselytizing with persistence and arrogance?!?! Destiny dictates for a man if he were to go to heaven or not, as per YOUR religious beliefs. YOU can't change others for what they believe in, but only they can change if destiny allows that. Another question: did God not teach us to be tolerant of other people and their beliefs? If you answered "No", then I must say that there is no solution but to shut up if you can't put up to the expectations of the person you are proselytizing.

...so if you can't be a tolerant person, keep your religious beliefs to yourself.

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2670 Location: The P-Brane

What about toleration of the intolerant? :lol:

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16371 Location: On Earth

wormwood wrote: What about toleration of the intolerant? :lol:

Good question. I would say that one should tolerate those who are intolerant, except to the degree that they would cause physical pain or a total infringement on your rights and your way of life. I'm open to suggestions, though.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

What power of enforcement do the religious have over other people?

BTW I didn't think you sounded arrogant at all. You have a right to believe how you wish. Whether someone agrees with you are not is not of any consequence.

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2670 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: cap'n queasy Posted:
What power of enforcement do the religious have over other people?

BTW I didn't think you sounded arrogant at all. You have a right to believe how you wish. Whether someone agrees with you are not is not of any consequence.
Ok seriously, who are you and what have you done with the real Cap? Where ever you put him, I see keep him there :lol:

JK Cap

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2670 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Good question. I would say that one should tolerate those who are intolerant, except to the degree that they would cause physical pain or a total infringement on your rights and your way of life. I'm open to suggestions, though. So, by the admission of your own statement you SHOULD tolerate people posting intolerant comments, even though you may hate it :wink: It's tough sometimes to be the good guy eh?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16371 Location: On Earth

wormwood wrote: Quote: Good question. I would say that one should tolerate those who are intolerant, except to the degree that they would cause physical pain or a total infringement on your rights and your way of life. I'm open to suggestions, though. So, by the admission of your own statement you SHOULD tolerate people posting intolerant comments, even though you may hate it :wink: It's tough sometimes to be the good guy eh?

It's not that. Religious beliefs should not come into play when it comes to relationships and social interactions. I believe that people should respect each other as human beings, but should not denigrate others simply for who or what they believe in.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16371 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: What power of enforcement do the religious have over other people?

We have no power. We have the power to preach, but not to proselytize. I believe that there is a difference.

Quote: BTW I didn't think you sounded arrogant at all. You have a right to believe how you wish. Whether someone agrees with you are not is not of any consequence.

What I'm trying to deliver home is that religion should not be of any consequence.

I am stating that religion is an individual matter, not a societal matter.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: I am stating that religion is an individual matter, not a societal matter.

How does that square with the Koran and Sharia law?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16371 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am stating that religion is an individual matter, not a societal matter.

How does that square with the Koran and Sharia law?

That's a different matter altogether. I'm saying that socially, no one should be forced to convert. Sharia Law is in fact analogous to Halakha Law of Judaism and Canon Law of Christianity. But otherwise, religion is an individual matter.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am stating that religion is an individual matter, not a societal matter.

How does that square with the Koran and Sharia law?

That's a different matter altogether. I'm saying that socially, no one should be forced to convert. Sharia Law is in fact analogous to Halakha Law of Judaism and Canon Law of Christianity. But otherwise, religion is an individual matter.
Those are religious legalistic constructs, as well, and don't square up with the concept of individual worship either.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16371 Location: On Earth

soldierofchrist wrote: Well ideally religion is an individual matter. However, in the real world, it doesn't work in such a way.

Sadly, but one has to try to keep religion as an individual matter. That way, people don't impede the works of others.

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: What power of enforcement do the religious have over other people?

We have no power. We have the power to preach, but not to proselytize. I believe that there is a difference.

Quote: BTW I didn't think you sounded arrogant at all. You have a right to believe how you wish. Whether someone agrees with you are not is not of any consequence.

What I'm trying to deliver home is that religion should not be of any consequence.

I am stating that religion is an individual matter, not a societal matter.

Quote: cap'n queasy wrote:
What power of enforcement do the religious have over other people?
We have no power. We have the power to preach, but not to proselytize. I believe that there is a difference.

I am not sure that is accurate, as I understand it. Arent' religious views/ideas passed into law a type of 'power'?

BastionOfSanity · Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject:

wormwood wrote: What about toleration of the intolerant? :lol:

Intoleration of people who have their mind set on intolerance is acceptable.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

Saracen wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I am stating that religion is an individual matter, not a societal matter.

How does that square with the Koran and Sharia law?

That's a different matter altogether. I'm saying that socially, no one should be forced to convert. Sharia Law is in fact analogous to Halakha Law of Judaism and Canon Law of Christianity. But otherwise, religion is an individual matter.

Canon Law has nothing to do with civil matters.

Shady · Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 7413 Location: VA

Saracen wrote: Yeah, you heard the title right. I know it sounds rough, but prepare yourselves for a rant (never had one in a long time, so take it easy on me)...

I'm a religious person. I pray five times a day and read the Koran, and I have a strong conviction towards my religion and my beliefs. I'm proud that I'm a Muslim, and that I believe in One God, who bears no partners and is no part of a Trinity or some pantheon of gods. I'm also happy that I ain't no athiest, and I'd rather not revert to being one. Plus, I'm intra-conservative and am rather humble when it comes to matters like women, abortion, and other social matters.

That sounded a bit too arrogant, didn't it? Maybe a bit intolerant? Yeah, I know what you're thinking: I'm just another religious nut here to proselytize you that if you don't believe in God, you'll go to Hell for eternity or until all your sins are purged. Better yet, you might have thought that I am here to tell you that you should all convert you all to Islam, or let you live under Islamic rule and pay the poll tax. Freaky, eh? Yes, I know, I know: there are a lot of people like that in this world, and you just can't stand them. You probably thought that you would never even stand one minute with me right next to you, even if you were a Muslim who did not conform to Islam properly.

Well, thank God, I am not like that. I've noticed a lot of people here, though, that are, especially when it comes to matters like telling others that if they don't accept Jesus, they will burn for all eternity, or that it's better that you don't believe in God at all... and you know what irks me? They go around enforcing their beliefs on others and at the same time denigrate and degrade your beliefs!!! I especially hate it when people go around like this and force people to convert or persist in their preaching.

Even if there was a single predominant faith in the past, let's face it: this world is full of people, full of beliefs, full of religions, full of races, full of colors, full of everything... and no, I don't mean full of "it"... well, sometimes. And one has to face this belief found in almost all religions: destiny is something no one can control. You can proselytize someone for weeks on end, but he won't convert if destiny does not dictate that he will. Granted, it's alright to preach, but sometimes people go over the edge, especially when they bring arrogance and pompousness into the equation. I notice that a lot around here, but to all you religious folk, ask yourselves: isn't arrogance a sin? Isn't pompousness a sin as well? Did not God teach us to be ever so humble when it comes to religious matters, even when in front of others who do not share our faith? I'm pretty sure you would answer yes...

Then why the hell are you proselytizing with persistence and arrogance?!?! Destiny dictates for a man if he were to go to heaven or not, as per YOUR religious beliefs. YOU can't change others for what they believe in, but only they can change if destiny allows that. Another question: did God not teach us to be tolerant of other people and their beliefs? If you answered "No", then I must say that there is no solution but to shut up if you can't put up to the expectations of the person you are proselytizing.

...so if you can't be a tolerant person, keep your religious beliefs to yourself.

Good post Saracen. :tu: You got my vote for President.... er if you were a USA citizen that is. :?

sLiPpY · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 10088

Actually, I don't have a problem with Christians being intolerant and telling others they will burn in hell.

After all, it's 100 percent Biblical, and to quote the Apostle Paul "You stupid, idiotic Galatians!" :lol:

Omega1 · Joined: 29 Apr 2006 Posts: 456

Saracen wrote: I especially hate it when people go around like this and force people to convert or persist in their preaching. ...so if you can't be a tolerant person, keep your religious beliefs to yourself.[/b]

God surely isn't keeping it to himself

Numbers 33:4 While the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn... upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5521 Location: Dreamland, NC

Saracen wrote:
It's not that. Religious beliefs should not come into play when it comes to relationships and social interactions. I believe that people should respect each other as human beings, but should not denigrate others simply for who or what they believe in.

Why not?

Aren't your beliefs the very essence of your character. In fact you could say the opposite about religion. How that person carries themself through their religious life is the best measure of a person's character. I have no respect for the satanists who execute animals or people. I have no respect for the people that use their religious affliation as the "end all" to their political turmoil. I have zero tolerance for those religions that say it is OK for you to commit suicide in order for you to attain religious ends.

Are you going to call me an intolerant hypocrite? Probably. But what I do have is plain old common sense. I realize that your religious affliation can very well be the judge of your values and standards.

I ask you if we are not to judge people by who or what they believe in then what are we to judge them by? If their values aren't good enough to judge by then what is?

George W Bush · Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject:

Main problem I have with religious types is their manipulative ways.

They would befriend you to get you to their church. But, would not like you if you did not go.

Theres no purity of feeling there. You cannot say you like someone but then, turn around, and disown them for their simple decision not to join their faith.

I also see alot of "fake, plastic" people in religion. They have character fitting the ideals of their mindset. That is, they mask what they feel because sometimes feeling is BAD or that it doesnt conform to their intended act/drama. This type of personality flaw is what makes the mental health field tick. Repressed feeling is a boon to their industry.

Religion should simply be a natural manifestation of yourself and not what some narcisisstic, power-hungry preacher dictates, or what some book requires.

Thats what I see and that is why I resist.