Political Crossfire Forums

[sLiPpY]

I would guess, that most who are of the mind set to critique the gospels...would like the Book of John the least. We've just started reviewing the work, written around 95 CE...just this week.

One thing I did like was the lecture's presentation of the concept of Sophia. It's not something I'd heard in a Baptist Church, I can remember a guest Anglican speaker commenting on the subject...but it's more so a concept that survives in Gnosticism although it most definitely was a concept of the early church.

What I didn't like about the Book of John? If it were the only presentation of Jesus, dare say...I wouldn't have liked the man at all. He seemed rather narcissistic and arrogant.

Jesus heals the blind man, and other's inquire of whether the blind man or his parents sinned? to cause his blindness. Jesus answers "nada" none of the above! The blind man has walked around in blindness all of his life, just so that I could walk by him, and glorify myself. :?

Then the story of Lazarus really takes the cake. The family sits around worrying, and keeps coming after Jesus attempting to gain his assistance. Not only does Jesus hang out, and passively respond to the repeated request...Jesus makes damn good and sure that Lazarus is dead. Not only dead, but dead and stinky!

I found it interesting that Jesus makes three trips to Jerusalem in the book of John, vs. only one...in all of the other Synoptics. He also confronts the money changers during the first trip vs. that episode being the means for attracting the negative attentions of the priest, as with all the other gospel stories. The other element that seems fishy, in contrast...is it's the raising of Lazarus that ends Jesus up on the cross vs. whatever Matthew, Mark, Luke, have to say about it.

Also like the book of Mark, there is no birth narrative. So I'm hoping someone can post something that might spark a renewed interest in the book of John, that might get me over my study slump...and through these last few weeks before finals. ;)

All I can think right now, is dang...can't those people get their dang stories straight? If it were just people in different areas telling their stories, I can see how they'd all differ. But divinely inspired scribes? I still don't buy it.

[Clara Listensprechen]

Hehehe...NO they can't keep their stories straight. John is my favorite gospel because of all the screw-ups he does regarding his accounts of apostles--he is unable to name all of The Twelve by name, and given that he refers to John Zebedee as someone other than himself, then there'd have to be 2 Johns as apostles. The funniest part of John is where he lets fly with an "overheard" comment made by Jesus to Peter concerning "what if" Jesus allowed John to stay alive until his second coming.

Let's face it--John was making claims to apostlehood during an era that he had to explain his youth compared to his claim to have been around when Jesus walked. A biblical Slick Willie, that John.

[garyd]

There were two John's, two Judas at least three Mary's and so forth. The Hebrews of that time period don't seem to have been nearly as inventive when it comes to names as we moderns.

Ditto most of the ancient world where in most last names seem to be derived from Occupations and still others are mearly a first name with the word son attached.

[Clara Listensprechen]

garyd wrote: There were two John's, two Judas at least three Mary's and so forth. The Hebrews of that time period don't seem to have been nearly as inventive when it comes to names as we moderns.

Ditto most of the ancient world where in most last names seem to be derived from Occupations and still others are mearly a first name with the word son attached.

There were 3 Judases, one of which also went by the name Thomas Didymus, going also by the nickname "Joses" (Judas). There were 3 Johns--Mark also went by that name.

Hebrews were more inventive than recorded in Christian scripture because those weren't real Hebrews that made up the Christian NT. Masorites used an enhanced Hebrew alphabet that the Hebrews themselves didn't use--and, being of Messianic persuasion, tweaked the OT here n there to ensure it reinforced the NT.

Ain't the Bible Name Game wunnerful? Really illuminates a lot, doesn't it.

[cap'n queasy]

Learn something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text

[Clara Listensprechen]

From Wikipedia? Sorry, kid, but I have higher standards.

How' bout you show us what you've read in The Bible and play The Bible Name Game with us; the Bonus Question is about John's Gospel specifically:

SELECT ONE: The original 12 Apostles by name are:

1) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John of Zebedee
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Zealot
....Lebbeus Thaddeus

2) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John of Zebedee
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Canaanite
....Judas of James

3) Simon/Cephus
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....James
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas Didymus
....Matthew
....Simon Zelotes
....Nathaniel

4) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas of James
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Zealot
....Matthias

5) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....Levi
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Canaanite
....Nathaniel

6) Simon/Peter/Kephus
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John Zebedee
....Judas
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Nathaniel
....Thomas Didymus
....Some unnamed guy known only to the high priest
....Joseph of Arimathea
....John

BONUS QUESTION-- Name all of The Twelve apostles accounted for in the Gospel of John.

12 measly names should be a piece o cake for anybody who can rattle off 10 Commandments.

[John]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: From Wikipedia? Sorry, kid, but I have higher standards.

How' bout you show us what you've read in The Bible and play The Bible Name Game with us; the Bonus Question is about John's Gospel specifically:

SELECT ONE: The original 12 Apostles by name are:

1) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John of Zebedee
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Zealot
....Lebbeus Thaddeus

2) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John of Zebedee
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Canaanite
....Judas of James

3) Simon/Cephus
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....James
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas Didymus
....Matthew
....Simon Zelotes
....Nathaniel

4) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas of James
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Zealot
....Matthias

5) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....Levi
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Canaanite
....Nathaniel

6) Simon/Peter/Kephus
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John Zebedee
....Judas
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Nathaniel
....Thomas Didymus
....Some unnamed guy known only to the high priest
....Joseph of Arimathea
....John

BONUS QUESTION-- Name all of The Twelve apostles accounted for in the Gospel of John.

12 measly names should be a piece o cake for anybody who can rattle off 10 Commandments.


Simon, son of John (also known as Peter or Cephas) (John 1:42)
Andrew, son of John
James, son of Zebedee (nicknamed with his brother, Sons of Thunder) (Luke 5:10)
John, son of Zebedee (nicknamed with his brother, Sons of Thunder) (Luke 5:10)
Philip
Bartholomew
Matthew (also known as Levi)
Thomas
James, son of Alpheaus
Simon, the Canaanite (nicknamed the Zealot)
Judas, son of James (also called Lebbaeus or Thaddaeus)
Judas Iscariot

In the Gospel of John.....He doesn't tell you that he is the beloved disciple until the end. The first time I read that it brought tears to my eyes for some reason....something about it just hit me and caused me to weep like a little girl.


John 21
20 Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?"

21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?"

22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!"

23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?"

24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

[sLiPpY]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: From Wikipedia? Sorry, kid, but I have higher standards.

How' bout you show us what you've read in The Bible and play The Bible Name Game with us; the Bonus Question is about John's Gospel specifically:

SELECT ONE: The original 12 Apostles by name are:

1) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John of Zebedee
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Zealot
....Lebbeus Thaddeus

2) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John of Zebedee
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Canaanite
....Judas of James

3) Simon/Cephus
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....James
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas Didymus
....Matthew
....Simon Zelotes
....Nathaniel

4) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....James of Alpaeus
....Judas of James
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Zealot
....Matthias

5) Simon/Peter
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John
....Levi
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Bartholemew
....Thomas
....Matthew
....Simon the Canaanite
....Nathaniel

6) Simon/Peter/Kephus
....Andrew
....James of Zebedee
....John Zebedee
....Judas
....Judas Iscariot
....Phillip
....Nathaniel
....Thomas Didymus
....Some unnamed guy known only to the high priest
....Joseph of Arimathea
....John

BONUS QUESTION-- Name all of The Twelve apostles accounted for in the Gospel of John.

12 measly names should be a piece o cake for anybody who can rattle off 10 Commandments.

:gdgf: Those Schmible writers couldn't even keep their apostles straight. :wtf:

[John]

Quote: Those Schmible writers couldn't even keep their apostles straight.

Actually it gives us more detail and more insight.

[Clara Listensprechen]

You're the winner, Slippy! Exactly right. John The Poster left out Nathaniel The Apostle, and others. John the Gospel writer spoke of about 14 apostles, one of which had a name that escaped him and so he resorted to a description.

[John]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: You're the winner, Slippy! Exactly right. John The Poster left out Nathaniel The Apostle, and others. John the Gospel writer spoke of about 14 apostles, one of which had a name that escaped him and so he resorted to a description.

Bartholomew is another name that Nathaniel was called. Kinda like Thomas was also called Didymus. Same guy. Basic stuff here.

[Clara Listensprechen]

Ain't the Bible Name Game Wunnerful!! John--you can't prove your claim, by the way. Me, I can prove John = Mark cuz it's in Acts.

Etc.

You lose.

Both "Thomas" and "Didymus" are descriptives of a guy whose name was Judas--aka Joses.

[John]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: Ain't the Bible Name Game Wunnerful!! John--you can't prove your claim, by the way. Me, I can prove John = Mark cuz it's in Acts.

Etc.

You lose.

Both "Thomas" and "Didymus" are descriptives of a guy whose name was Judas.

:rotf:

You're a crack up. :lol:

[Clara Listensprechen]

Guess how "The Twin" translates.

Joke's on you.

[John]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: Guess how "The Twin" translates.

Joke's on you.

Yes I know that Didymus means twin.

You're relying on Gnostic texts to come up with your "Judas" name theory.

Next you'll be saying he was Jesus' twin brother and was the one who really died on the cross. :lol:

[Clara Listensprechen]

I'm relying on the familial relationship of one of the women who showed up at the cross, one of whom was the mother of Joses. Etc.
And there's nothing wrong with going by historical documents.

[John]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: I'm relying on the familial relationship of one of the women who showed up at the cross, one of whom was the mother of Joses. Etc.
And there's nothing wrong with going by historical documents.


Jesus had a half brother named Judas, possibly the author of Jude....but he wasn't Thomas...and he wasn't Jesus' twin.


Judas was a very common name. It's Judah which means Praise. It's actually a very pretty name.

[Clara Listensprechen]

So is John and so is Mary and so is Simon.

You'd think God's Word would have more names to play with in his bag o tricks. And all those aliases!! Looks like God himself is confused.

[John]

Clara Listensprechen wrote: So is John and so is Mary and so is Simon.

You'd think God's Word would have more names to play with in his bag o tricks. And all those aliases!! Looks like God himself is confused.


No. The Jews liked using common names back then. You were usually named after your father and other family members.

[Clara Listensprechen]

None of those names are of Hebrew origin. Nor is Jesus, as you're in frequent habit of pointing out.